Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
ssasny
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by ssasny »

It seems in the above, the word 'dukkara' (hard to make/do, dur + a form of the verb karoti) has been confused with 'dukkha'.

There is also dukkara-kārikā "doing of a hard task"
See PED entry 'kara'.

The suttacentral translation is fine.
wenjaforever
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by wenjaforever »

Mindfulness means being honest
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
ssasny
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by ssasny »

for a detailed discussion of mindfulness, see here:

viewtopic.php?t=4299
ssasny
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by ssasny »

A nice quote from the Anguttara in the above mentioned thread:

‘‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyyaṃ....
‘‘Kathañca, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti? ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ paripūressāmi, paripūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ādibrahmacariyikaṃ sikkhaṃ paripūressāmi, paripūraṃ vā ādibrahmacariyikaṃ sikkhaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti asamavekkhitaṃ vā dhammaṃ paññāya samavekkhissāmi, samavekkhitaṃ vā dhammaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti aphusitaṃ vā dhammaṃ vimuttiyā phusissāmi, phusitaṃ vā dhammaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti. ‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyya’nti, iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ idametaṃ paṭicca vutta’’nti.

“This holy life is lived… with mindfulness as its governing principle.…
And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched’ is well-established right within.
“This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.”

— AN 4:245
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mjaviem
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:05 pm ...
Since we are talking about immaterial attainments, I don't see how biology comes into it. There are 6 senses in Buddhism, not 5. Conciousness, vedanā & sañña have nothing to do with biology. The nearest we get to that is the idea of the 4 elements, with one's conciousness, vedanā & sañña being dependent upon a physical basis in addition to an immaterial one. That's not biology though, no medicine, nor physiology.
But why you believe cessation of feeling, perception, and consciousness "is impossible" for an Arahant while alive and, say, speaking or doing any activity,? I'm asking again to know how is it that you believe this. I'd like to understand how you or anyone explain it's not possible to have cessation of vinnana, sanna, and vedana for an Arahant engaged in a conversation for example. How this impossibility is not related to biological functioning? Why you say impossible?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

Still on the Main Topic: “Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?”

It is sad to see several people trying to deviate the discussion away from the main contradictions. No one cannot hide these apparent contradictions forever.
- Learn to think for yourself rather than blindly following other blind people/bhikkhus.

Think about the following. Let us leave out the specific people from the discussion. Almost all translators (X) have done the following.
(i) Translator X translates viññāṇa as consciousness.
(ii) Consciousness (according to English dictionaries) means the “state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.”
(iii) Then Translator X states, “consciousness will cease with the “complete cessation of avijjā.”
(iv) Upon Enlightenment, the Buddha’s avijjā ceased.
(v) Thus, the Buddha SHOULD HAVE lost consciousness upon Enlightenment (Nibbana), according to Translator X.

CONTRADICTION: The Buddha DID NOT LOSE consciousness upon Enlightenment (when “complete cessation of avijjā” happened). Instead, he was “awake” (other than while sleeping) and “perfectly aware of his surroundings” for 45 years until his passing away (Parinibbana).

Do those who say there is no contradiction care to point out any problems with the above logic? Which of the statements (i) through (v) is not correct?
- Please don't quote verses by others. Those translators have made the same contradictory statements!

By the way, I already explained that the Buddha LOST only one type of viññāṇa. That is the one arising due to avijjā: “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna;." That type of viññāṇa is MORE THAN just consciousness/awareness. It creates kammic energies that can bring vipaka and rebirth.
- The Buddha DID NOT LOSE eye-consciousness (cakkhu viññāṇa) , ear-consciousness (sota viññāṇa), etc.
- Therefore, there is no contradiction in the Tipitaka. One needs to comprehend Paticca Samuppada to realize that there are different types of (viññāṇa)
- Those who read the posts that I recommended would have seen this explanation.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Lal wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:17 pm
Think about the following. Let us leave out the specific people from the discussion. Almost all translators (X) have done the following.
(i) Translator X translates viññāṇa as consciousness.
(ii) Consciousness (according to English dictionaries) means the “state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.”
(iii) Then Translator X states, “consciousness will cease with the “complete cessation of avijjā.”
(iv) Upon Enlightenment, the Buddha’s avijjā ceased.
(v) Thus, the Buddha SHOULD HAVE lost consciousness upon Enlightenment (Nibbana), according to Translator X.

CONTRADICTION: The Buddha DID NOT LOSE consciousness upon Enlightenment (when “complete cessation of avijjā” happened). Instead, he was “awake” (other than while sleeping) and “perfectly aware of his surroundings” for 45 years until his passing away (Parinibbana).
There isn’t a contradiction, unless you forget the past.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ssasny
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by ssasny »

Lal wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:17 pm Still on the Main Topic: “Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?”- Those who read the posts that I recommended would have seen this explanation.
What you have just posted has all been covered in this thread, and several others.

for instance, see here:
viewtopic.php?t=41953&start=75
Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

Of course. There have been MANY discussions.
- None of those came to a conclusion.
- They are just philosophical chatter.
- Can you explain what you understand by "vinnana" in your own words, without quoting others?
ssasny
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by ssasny »

I have done so, on the thread page I linked to.

In brief, words have different shades of meaning based on their context.
It's important to understand the context of a word being used to appreciate its meaning.
the word 'consciousness' is no exception.

Have a good day.
auto
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:56 pm - Can you explain what you understand by "vinnana" in your own words, without quoting others?
Consciousness(vipaka) what is rooted in greed, hatred and delusion. It is result of an action(kamma) what is effective, unlike arhants action(kiriya) which is non-effective.

Also it is body in a body a'la kamma(deed)- born body and then the vipaka is within that body.
Jack19990101
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Jack19990101 »

IMO -
Buddha don't have eye... consciousness.
First, I gonna express that I do get what the gist OP tries to express by the Kamma vinnana vs Vipaka vinnana. I will use those terms in the post as a guest to host of the discussion.

While we cease kamma vinnana, continues on vipaka vinnana, is a middle phase.
The confusion is rooted in said vipaka vinnana.

A short sum for said vipaka vinnana - viññāna associated with INITIAL exposure.

Here is the miss -
If this exposure is picked by one sense based out of multiple senses - that is already Kamma. Because of its discriminative nature that sound is different than sight.

It feels as if a vipaka because this seems instinctive to human, beyond will. But the human instincts are Kamma. not vipaka.

This initial exposure vinnana, is to be rid of differentiating by multiplicity of senses.
It is to be done by cessation of inner sense bases.

With cessation of sense bases, one perceives singularity albeit with body of multiplicity.

All sense consciousness arising to an individual sense organ, must be gone. There is no vipaka sense consciousness. They are all kamma.
User13866
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Since OP is a physicist i'll make philosophical point to do with physics.

When we try to figure out what is vinnana it has to be principally associated with measururement-observation which collapses the wave function.

Whether this element's coming into play is associated with delusion or not is as relevant to explaining what it is as the difference between making a measurement on a sunday compared to making a measurement on a wendsday.

It does nothing to explain measurement as a principial element.

The dependent origination explains the entire coming into being of this or that observer's frame of reference & all elements associated with it, which is basically the entire observable world-system with it's principal observation-conception-perception in as far as any one observer is concerned.

When i am reading some of the things you write about reactive/non-reactive consciousness, that's like some psychology or something...
Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

I am glad to see some constructive comments with sensible questions.

Jack19990101 wrote:
“Here is the miss -
If this exposure is picked by one sense based out of multiple senses - that is already Kamma. Because of its discriminative nature that sound is different than sight. “

Sensory input is not a kamma. There is no intention to do anything there.
- For example, SEEING a beautiful woman on the street does not involve any intention. It is a “vipaka vinnana.”
- But if one gets attracted to that woman and LOOKS at her again, that is done with kama raga and with intention. That ACTION is done with “kamma vinnana.”
- By the way, that is not a strong kamma leading to rebirth. But we have heard about cases where such incidents lead to rape or even killings. Those will be strong kamma leading rebirth in “bad realms.”

@ [name redacted by admin]
I think you are getting too deep into physics. That is not necessary.

You wrote: “The dependent origination explains the entire coming into being of this or that observer's frame of reference, and all elements associated with it, which is basically the entire observable world-system with it's principal observation-conception-perception in as far as any one observer is concerned.”
- That is a complex statement.
- I would try to go step-by-step. First, we need to understand what is meant by the first step in Paticca Sauppada: “avijja paccaya sankhara.” Sankhara (or more correctly, abhisankhara) are our DEFILED thoughts (with greed, anger, and/or ignorance). With such thoughts arising first, we may then speak and do things to fulfill that desire.
- In the example of seeing a beautiful woman above, one may act with lust and engage in violent actions like rape/murder. Those involve “apunna/akusala abhisankhara.” The Paticca Samuppada progression shows how that leads to “bhava” (existence) and “jati” (births) in "unfortunate realms" (like the animal realm or worse) in the future.
User13866
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Lal wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:37 am Sankhara (or more correctly, abhisankhara) are our DEFILED thoughts (with greed, anger, and/or ignorance). With such thoughts arising first, we may then speak and do things to fulfill that desire.
- In the example of seeing a beautiful woman above, one may act with lust and engage in violent actions like rape/murder. Those involve “apunna/akusala abhisankhara.” The Paticca Samuppada progression shows how that leads to “bhava” (existence) and “jati” (births) in "unfortunate realms" (like the animal realm or worse) in the future.
We can set this aside for now but if you want to entertain the "going too deep into physics" i can try to explain how i connect it.
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