Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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User13866
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:11 pm
User13866 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:06 pm I assumed that OP wants to insist on a new translation.
I believe the OP isn't insisting on a completely new translation for the word vinnana as “consciousness”, but rather the translation should be augmented, clarified / differentiate and most importantly based on context. If one looks up the English definition of "consciousness', here's what we get:

- "the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings."
- "a person's awareness or perception of something."
No need to fix what isn't broken.
Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:11 pm The main point OP is trying to make is exactly this:

“OP: - “Translating “viññāṇa” as "consciousness" leads to self-contradiction. Therefore, there is a CRITICAL ERROR with that translation. We can discuss what the correct translation SHOULD BE after settling this issue.”

-“the contradiction of translating “viññāṇa “ as “consciousness” regardless of the context.”

For example, when the English word "consciousness" is used by itself for the translation of vinnana, from the reverse Paticca Samuppada process "vinnana nirodha", it would be / is translated as "consciousness ceases". Which everyone can see for themselves.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/suja ... =latin#3.1

OP: - “Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho, saṅkhāranirodhā viññāṇanirodho. At marker 3.1, those verses are translated as When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases.
- That means there will be no consciousness when avijja is completely removed from a mind. There is no way to avoid that conclusion per that translation.
When a person turns his mind away from the conditioned elements and towards the deathless, he stops giving attention to any nimittas and directs it to the animittadhatu, with that there is a stilling of all sankhara, when there is stilling of all sankhara all aggregates cease.
"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
Their cessation principle is not included in the Allness of the All and it is empty of avijja, empty of nimitta, empty of limits, empty of things.

During the cessation attainment the monk's verbal sankhara are stilled, his bodily sankhara are stilled and his mental sankhara are stilled and his faculties are exceptionally clear.
“There are three conditions, your reverence, for the persistence of the freedom of mind that is signless: paying no attention to any signs, and paying attention to the signless realm, and a preceding preparation. 
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/horner ... ight=false
The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
If a monk's taints are completely destroyed by his seeing with wisdom then good and in as far as there is awareness release he has attained the foremost unprovoked release.
However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#iti-044
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:47 pm
Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:32 am

Again, it is a waste of time to quote numerous translators who translate the above verses similarly.
- If the foundation is rotten, the building cannot last long. This practice of mechanically and mindlessly translating suttas must end.
Begun, the age of dubious translations, has.
Entering the age of translations based on occult knowledge.

Lal will teach us the real pali
No. I need to teach some of you basic logic, it seems.

As I have repeatedly tried to explain, the problem with Bhikkhu Sujato's translations can be seen without any knowledge of Pali.
Please read my posts carefully and use common sense.

1. Did the Buddha lose consciousness upon Enlightenment? No. he did not lose cakkhu viññāṇa, sota viññāṇa, etc. So he did not lose awareness (consciousness).
2. As I pointed at the end of my last post, "Viññāṇassa nirodhā nāmarūpanirodho .. evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī'ti" was translated by Bhikku Sujato as "When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. …That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.” That viññāṇa is not merely awareness. That should not be translated as "consciousness."
- That is the second type of viññāṇa that would not arise in a Buddha or an Arahant. That "kamma viññāṇa" was a special type of viññāṇa that ceased.

Still don't get it?
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:09 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:47 pm

Begun, the age of dubious translations, has.
Entering the age of translations based on occult knowledge.

Lal will teach us the real pali
No. I need to teach some of you basic logic, it seems.

As I have repeatedly tried to explain, the problem with Bhikkhu Sujato's translations can be seen without any knowledge of Pali.
Please read my posts carefully and use common sense.

1. Did the Buddha lose consciousness upon Enlightenment? No. he did not lose cakkhu viññāṇa, sota viññāṇa, etc. So he did not lose awareness (consciousness).
2. As I pointed at the end of my last post, "Viññāṇassa nirodhā nāmarūpanirodho .. evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī'ti" was translated by Bhikku Sujato as "When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. …That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.” That viññāṇa is not merely awareness. That should not be translated as "consciousness."
- That is the second type of viññāṇa that would not arise in a Buddha or an Arahant. That "kamma viññāṇa" was a special type of viññāṇa that ceased.

Still don't get it?
I understand your point but your terminology is imprecise.

When you say
upon Enlightenment
When is that exactly?
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:09 pm
Please read my posts carefully and use common sense.

1. Did the Buddha lose consciousness upon Enlightenment? No. he did not lose cakkhu viññāṇa, sota viññāṇa, etc. So he did not lose awareness (consciousness).
2. As I pointed at the end of my last post, "Viññāṇassa nirodhā nāmarūpanirodho .. evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī'ti" was translated by Bhikku Sujato as "When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. …That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.” That viññāṇa is not merely awareness. That should not be translated as "consciousness."
- That is the second type of viññāṇa that would not arise in a Buddha or an Arahant. That "kamma viññāṇa" was a special type of viññāṇa that ceased.

Still don't get it?
I am not sure common sense will get you very far...

Are you aware that Buddha explains cessation of perception & feeling but describes it as pleasure?

According to common sense this is a contradiction isn't it?

Clearly he can not be talking about the 6 types of consciousness or the 6 classes of vedana
Last edited by User13866 on Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

I explained the two types of vinnana in an old post: "Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana": viewtopic.php?p=484554#p484554

P.S. The problem is that people rush to post comments without reading the links that I provide. I provided the above link earlier.
- The six types of vinnana CAN BE translated as "consciousness": eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. Those are "vipaka vinnana."
- The other type of vinnana arise via Paticca Samuppada: "avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana." The types of sankhara involved here are abhisankhara. It requires a lengthy explanation.
- If there are questions on that post, please feel free to ask. Please point to the bullet # in the post. That will make it easier to answer.
- I am not going to answer random questions. Stay focused!
Last edited by Lal on Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:32 pm I explained the two types of vinnana in an old post: "Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana": viewtopic.php?p=484554#p484554
Do you hold that vinnana is such that arises as defiled vinnana and ceases as undefiled vinnana?

In other words, it arises as one thing and ceases as another.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:14 pm It looks like the claim that the Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages defines vijñāna as "diverse knowledge," or "divided knowing," or whatever else of such nonsense, was totally bogus and nothing but a false claim.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:25 pm
You were then attempting to argue that viññāṇa means "divided knowledge" because of the significance of the prefix "vi".
What do you geniuses think i meant when i used the word literally in the very first sentence of the very first post?
User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:54 pm Vinnana is generally taught as literally close to 'divided knowing'.
...
The word literally in this context is imo quite sufficient to narrow it down to etymology as is done here for example
understand (v.)
Old English understandan "to comprehend, grasp the idea of, receive from a word or words or from a sign the idea it is intended to convey; to view in a certain way," probably literally "stand in the midst of," from under + standan "to stand" (see stand (v.))

https://www.etymonline.com/word/understand
However you keep insisting that i was arguing definitions even tho in that very first post i made it quite explicit, perhaps not explicit enough but it's certainly unreasonable to assert that i am lying about it.

It is how quite idiotic to assert that i would make an argument akin to explaining the word understand to mean that we stand-under something.

You are clearly villifying me and even when i explained exactly what i meant, you are saying that i did that only to lie, to cover up mistakes and to backpedal. And what a vile thing it is to claim that i did and am still lying about any of this.

Let alone using the term literally to narrow it to etymology in the 1st sentence, i explicitly talked about the analogical etymology in the 3nd sentence comparing the etynology of two words.
Therefore if vinnana is a 'divided knowing' the 'soznanie' has the same semantics and analogical etymology.
Learn to read
Last edited by User13866 on Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:42 am
You said the “vi” was meaningful.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:05 am
User13866 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:42 am
You said the “vi” was meaningful.
Under in understand is also meaningful
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

Those who would like to read up on this issue can read the following post that I just posted at a different thread:

"Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa" :viewtopic.php?p=713568#p713568

If anyone has any questions on that post or any other post of mine, please feel free to ask here. Please don't ask questions on the above thread.
- I will not answer random questions asked without reading the recommended posts. It is best to quote from my post if you think I misinterpret the Tipitaka. Point out the misinterpretation and explain why it is a misinterpretation.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Coëmgenu »

As per TOS 2j, [name redacted by admin] is instructed not to involve me in any further posts on this thread including any further accusations of conspiracy, accusations of illiteracy, or accusations of other such nonsense. They can continue to claim that they were wrongly accused of refusing to admit that they were wrong until the cows come home.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:37 pm As per TOS 2j, [name redacted by admin] is instructed not to involve me in any further posts on this thread including any further accusations of conspiracy, accusations of illiteracy, or accusations of other such nonsense. They can continue to claim that they were wrongly accused of refusing to admit that they were wrong until the cows come home.
Noted.

Criticism of arguments made is of course allowed, but large amounts of personal criticism have already been removed.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

As as i was saying vinnana is generally taught as literally divided-knowing.

Etymologically of course)

I think that translating it as consciousness is very good.

As to contextual 'definition' for it's proper conception we have to infer & construe from the following and more
What's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
“Contact, reverends, is one end. The origin of contact is the second end. The cessation of contact is the middle. And craving is the seamstress, for craving weaves one to this or that kind of becoming.

Mind precedes fabricated things; Mind directs them, they are mind-made.

"And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.
“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it consciousness? ‘It cognizes, ’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness. And what does it cognize? It cognizes sour, it cognizes bitter, it cognizes pungent, it cognizes sweet, it cognizes sharp, it cognizes mild, it cognizes salty, it cognizes bland.

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it
‘It cognizes,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness.

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

"And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

 I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

‘Whatever Consciousness, bhikkhus, has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
One who comprehends will use the word properly whereas one who doesn't comprehend will stumble & fall if questioned and turn out to contradict the texts.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by auto »

from the link
Lal wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:52 pm 1.

- Most suttās only give only the uddesa form of the Paṭiloma (reverse) Paṭicca Samuppāda, for example, “avijjā nirodhā.. viññāṇa nirodho.” If that is translated word-by-word as “when ignorance ceases,. . consciousness ceases,” that leads to utter confusion. Did the Buddha lose consciousness upon attaining Enlightenment?
You can provide your explanation, something you did here,
Lal wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:13 pm- Note that an earlier verse, “Pabbajitena kho, āvuso, abhirati dukkarā” ti.” is mistranslated in the Sutta Central translation as “When you’ve gone forth it’s hard to be satisfied.” The correct translation is, “When you’ve gone forth, you see craving for sensual attractions (abhirati) as (the cause of) suffering (dukkarā).”
You are giving different meaning based on what makes sense to you at the moment, with which you are stuck with, because of the claim it is pure dhamma what were lost 200 years(saying that hardly you change your mind anyway).

abhirati looks like rajjati.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/r/rajjati/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera

rajjati:[raj + ya] finds pleasure in; to be attached to.
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