Revealing secrets

[Bundokji]

I'd be very cautious when some monk proclaiming other peoples' attainment due to that not-so-subtle hint about their own attainment as mentioned in a different thread.

In my case, it is believable without the not-so-subtle hinting. There are naturally gifted individuals in many fields. Training in previous lives could be a possible explanation, or simply the bell shaped distribution, which includes both the standard and the extremes.

[santa100]

In my case, it is believable without the not-so-subtle hinting. There are naturally gifted individuals in many fields. Training in previous lives could be a possible explanation, or simply the bell shaped distribution, which includes both the standard and the extremes.

And even for those worldly attainments, for a case to be valid, the individual would need to be subjected to very objective and rigorous evaluating metrics with experts at least at the same level or above to verify what the individual claims to be. So logically speaking, if Sujato declared that John Doe has attained the 1st jhana, then by logic, not only Sujato must've already attained AT LEAST the 1st jhana, but ALSO he must've attained the supernormal power of telepathy in order to see and validate what's really going on in John Doe's mind during his meditative session! So, as mentioned in my other thread, how can you know if all of that are just part of a not-so-subtle hint, like an indirect self-marketing effort??

[Bundokji]

And even for those worldly attainments, for a case to be valid, the individual would need to be subjected to very objective and rigorous evaluating metrics with experts at least at the same level or above to verify what the individual claims to be. So logically speaking, if Sujato declared that John Doe has attained the 1st jhana, then by logic, not only Sujato must've already attained AT LEAST the 1st jhana, but ALSO he must've attained the supernormal power of telepathy to see what's really going on in John Doe's mind during his meditative session!

Or he simply heard that some people attain jhanas without much training and found it believable. More generally, interpreting the results of testing is often influenced by faith:

"And what is the miracle of psychic power? There is the case where a monk wields manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

"Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him wielding manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Gandhari charm by which the monk wielded manifold psychic powers... exercising influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.

[santa100]

Or he simply heard that some people attain jhanas without much training and found it believable. More generally, interpreting the results of testing is often influenced by faith:

All the more reason for folks, especially well-known spiritual teachers, to be very mindful at whatever they say, unless they want to be famous (or infamous) like George Santos!