Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mahabrahma
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Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Mahabrahma »

This Sutta and it's commentary:
Khp 6 From… Ratana Sutta — Treasures
…Those who have seen clearly the noble truths
well-taught by the one deeply discerning—
regardless of what [later] might make them heedless—
will come to no eighth state of becoming.3
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Saṅgha.
By this truth may there be well-being.

At the moment of attaining sight,
one abandons three things:
identity-views, uncertainty,
& any attachment to habits & practices.4
One is completely released
from the four states of deprivation,5
and incapable of committing
the six great wrongs.6
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Saṅgha.
By this truth may there be well-being.…

3. The person who has reached this stage in the practice will be reborn at most seven more times.

4. These three qualities are the fetters abandoned when one gains one’s first glimpse of unbinding at stream-entry (the moment when one enters the stream to full awakening).

5. Four states of deprivation: rebirth as an animal, a hungry ghost, an angry demon, or a denizen of hell. In the Buddhist cosmology, none of these states is eternal.

6. According to the commentary, the six great wrongs are: murdering one’s mother, murdering one’s father, murdering an arahant (fully awakened individual), wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Saṅgha, or choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one’s foremost teacher. The first five are listed in AN 5:129 as leading immediately to hell after death.
So the sixth, choosing a foremost Teacher other than a Buddha would be a great wrong according to a commentary in the system. Yet I don't think Peaceful Siddhartha would be so selfish as to be so rigid with such a rule, or even make it. Buddhism shouldn't be so compulsory. Sometimes Buddhas just aren't seen for millions of kalpas, and Teachers are still needed. And sometimes we need Jesus or Guru Gobind Singh as our Teacher, or maybe they are Buddha from another life. I'm glad to the honest practitioner Buddhas are everywhere. Many of the figureheads of other Spiritual Traditions are Buddhas, but not all of them. And I think dispute over this rule could have caused a small schism in the Sangha, breaking a previous rule it was meant to upkeep. So we need some diligence in perceiving commentaries as to whether they are correct in everything. One small word written incorrectly can cause a lot of problems, because we are all looking for the proper translations and commentaries on the Buddha's Words.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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cappuccino
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:51 am Sometimes Buddhas just aren't seen …
But such wisdom was lost to the world in Velāma’s time, as he lived during the empty aeons between the arising of two Buddhas. Therefore he had no access to such understanding.

The Message of the Velāma Sutta
By Susan Elbaum Jootla
santa100
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by santa100 »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:51 am Many of the figureheads of other Spiritual Traditions are Buddhas, but not all of them. And I think dispute over this rule could have caused a small schism in the Sangha, breaking a previous rule it was meant to upkeep.
You are actually causing a schism in the Sangha by your wrong view that "Many of the figureheads of other Spiritual Traditions are Buddhas", for the Buddha already specifically stated this impossibility in MN 115:
MN 115 wrote:‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that two Accomplished Ones, Fully Enlightened Ones, could arise contemporaneously in one world-system—there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that one Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One, might arise in one world-system—there is such a possibility.’
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Is that so?

Well let the Buddha Emanate where He wishes and don't limit Him to a single body. He has an all pervading one too!
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
santa100
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by santa100 »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:58 pm Is that so?

Well let the Buddha Emanate where He wishes and don't limit Him to a single body. He has an all pervading one too!
Correct, and that "all pervading" body is called the Dhamma, NOT the "Many of the figureheads of other Spiritual Traditions are Buddhas":
SN 22.87 wrote:“[Vakkali:]For a long time, venerable sir, I have wanted to come to see the Blessed One, but I haven’t been fit enough to do so.”

[The Buddha:]“Enough, Vakkali! Why do you want to see this foul body? One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the Dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me, one sees the Dhamma.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Mahabrahma »

:broke: well I have nothing to offer you it seems. Believe in your abilities to attain Enlightenment. I believe you can Attain Buddhahood, and if you think you can't, sorry, I'm going to have to tell you that you're crazy if you truly think you can't become a Buddha...
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
santa100
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by santa100 »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:13 pm :broke: well I have nothing to offer you it seems. Believe in your abilities to attain Enlightenment. I believe you can Attain Buddhahood, and if you think you can't, sorry, I'm going to have to tell you that you're crazy if you truly think you can't become a Buddha...
What I do or do not believe in is irrelevant to the immediate claim you've just made: "Many of the figureheads of other Spiritual Traditions are Buddhas". This idea might be supported by some over at our sister site Dharmawheel.net, but I already provided you all the Suttas evidences that it's certainly NOT supported in the Pali Canon.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Okay thank you for your input. Carry on. I'm not going to argue with you. :heart:
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
santa100
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by santa100 »

Don't get me wrong. I don't doubt the good intention behind your ideas. But maybe we Theravadins are much more rigorous when it comes to verifying/validating/distinguishing Dhamma from ADhamma. Matter of fact, the Buddha Himself actually encouraged all his followers, if they're serious enough in their learning and cultivation, to always employ the Four Great Referrals to navigate the path after He's long gone:
DN 16 wrote:“Here, monks, a monk might speak like this: ‘I have heard this directly from the Gracious One, friends, directly I learned it: “This is the Teaching, this is the Discipline, this is the Teacher’s Dispensation.”’ That monk’s speech, monks, is not to be rejoiced over, not to be scorned at. Without having rejoiced over it, without having scorned it, after learning those words and syllables well, they should be laid alongside the Discourses, they should be compared with the Discipline.

SC 4062) If, when these are laid alongside the Discourses, compared with the Discipline, they do not fit in with the Discourses, they do not compare well with the Discipline, you may here come to this conclusion: ‘Certainly this is not the Gracious One’s word, it is not well learned by that monk,’ and, monks, you should abandon it. If when these are laid alongside the Discourses, compared with the Discipline, they do fit in with the Discourses, they do compare well with the Discipline, you may come to this conclusion: ‘Certainly this is the Gracious One’s word, it is well-learned by that monk.’
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Mahabrahma »

I totally see that you can find Peace and Tranquility there. Thank you. :namaste:
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
Red Belly
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Red Belly »

Maha, I'm assuming you are from the Mahayana tradition? This would partly explain why you and santa100 are talking past each other. According to Theravada, however, he/she is correct: the founders and leading lights of other religions are not Buddhas and cannot really be compared to one; it is not just a difference in degree, but in kind. This isn't to say one can't derive real wisdom and benefit from other great religious teachers, but it is misleading to call them something they are not.
TRobinson465
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:51 am This Sutta and it's commentary:
Khp 6 From… Ratana Sutta — Treasures
…Those who have seen clearly the noble truths
well-taught by the one deeply discerning—
regardless of what [later] might make them heedless—
will come to no eighth state of becoming.3
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Saṅgha.
By this truth may there be well-being.

At the moment of attaining sight,
one abandons three things:
identity-views, uncertainty,
& any attachment to habits & practices.4
One is completely released
from the four states of deprivation,5
and incapable of committing
the six great wrongs.6
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Saṅgha.
By this truth may there be well-being.…

3. The person who has reached this stage in the practice will be reborn at most seven more times.

4. These three qualities are the fetters abandoned when one gains one’s first glimpse of unbinding at stream-entry (the moment when one enters the stream to full awakening).

5. Four states of deprivation: rebirth as an animal, a hungry ghost, an angry demon, or a denizen of hell. In the Buddhist cosmology, none of these states is eternal.

6. According to the commentary, the six great wrongs are: murdering one’s mother, murdering one’s father, murdering an arahant (fully awakened individual), wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Saṅgha, or choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one’s foremost teacher. The first five are listed in AN 5:129 as leading immediately to hell after death.
So the sixth, choosing a foremost Teacher other than a Buddha would be a great wrong according to a commentary in the system. Yet I don't think Peaceful Siddhartha would be so selfish as to be so rigid with such a rule, or even make it. Buddhism shouldn't be so compulsory. Sometimes Buddhas just aren't seen for millions of kalpas, and Teachers are still needed. And sometimes we need Jesus or Guru Gobind Singh as our Teacher, or maybe they are Buddha from another life. I'm glad to the honest practitioner Buddhas are everywhere. Many of the figureheads of other Spiritual Traditions are Buddhas, but not all of them. And I think dispute over this rule could have caused a small schism in the Sangha, breaking a previous rule it was meant to upkeep. So we need some diligence in perceiving commentaries as to whether they are correct in everything. One small word written incorrectly can cause a lot of problems, because we are all looking for the proper translations and commentaries on the Buddha's Words.
I think it is strange to include picking another teacher in the same list as killing your parents. But conceptionally it is right that your foremost teacher should be a Buddha as Buddha's are the supreme teachers. If you have a Buddha listed as your teacher but he is not your foremost teacher, this implies you think the teachings of others is the superior to his. Which is wrong. It's not a matter of intolerance it's a matter of objectivity. A fool would pick copper over gold. That doesn't mean the copper doesn't have some value, but the gold is simply superior. Obviously Buddha's are rare and it's not reasonable to think it's saying this is always the case and needed to avoid damnation like in Christianity, especially in times where there is no Buddha.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by TRobinson465 »

It should also be noted the sutta seems to be talking about 6 things a sotapanna is incapable of doing. Obviously a sotapanna cannot pick a foremost teacher other than a Buddha as a sotapanna can only reach that state under the guidance of a Buddha and they by definition have no doubt in the supreme teachings of the Buddha. Saying a sotapanna is capable of picking anybody but a Buddha as his/her foremost teacher is a paradox. Like saying someone is a married bachelor
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Ontheway
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Ontheway »

It seems user Mahabrahma mistaken Buddha's teachings as Baha'i faith.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Only Buddhas should be our foremost Teachers in all circumstances?

Post by Mahabrahma »

We have a habit of thinking we know the way it goes, then it goes another way. I know the latter is not a laughing matter but it seems we'd be crazy not to think that maybe this could be exactly what should be...
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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