The type of Pandaja who should not be ordained are these ( taken from a post by Dhammanando).
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Regarding paṇḍakas, in the Vinaya Atthakathā these are classified as being of five types:
1) āsitta-paṇḍaka: — (literally, a "sprinkled one") a man who finds sexual fulfillment in performing fellatio on another man and bringing him to climax. (For some reason, other homosexual acts, even though they were known in ancient India, are not included under this type nor under any of the types in this list.)
2) usūya-paṇḍaka: — a voyeur a man who finds sexual fulfillment in watching other people have sex.
3) opakkamika-paṇḍaka: — A eunuch - one who has been castrated.
4) pakkha-paṇḍaka: — A half-time paṇḍaka - one who is a paṇḍaka only during the waning moon.
5) napuṃsaka-paṇḍaka: — A neuter - a person born without sexual organs.
(I have followed Ven. Thanissaro's translations of these terms)
Of these five kinds, the first two may ordain as bhikkhus, the other three may not. So, given that the āsitta-paṇḍaka —the type closest to what we call a "homosexual" today— is permitted to ordain, I think we have to take it that such persons are in fact capable of awakening
robertk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:40 pm
A regular gay man may ordain
The type of Pandaja who should not be ordained are these ( taken from a post by Dhammanando).
.
Regarding paṇḍakas, in the Vinaya Atthakathā these are classified as being of five types:
1) āsitta-paṇḍaka: — (literally, a "sprinkled one") a man who finds sexual fulfillment in performing fellatio on another man and bringing him to climax. (For some reason, other homosexual acts, even though they were known in ancient India, are not included under this type nor under any of the types in this list.)
2) usūya-paṇḍaka: — a voyeur a man who finds sexual fulfillment in watching other people have sex.
3) opakkamika-paṇḍaka: — A eunuch - one who has been castrated.
4) pakkha-paṇḍaka: — A half-time paṇḍaka - one who is a paṇḍaka only during the waning moon.
5) napuṃsaka-paṇḍaka: — A neuter - a person born without sexual organs.
(I have followed Ven. Thanissaro's translations of these terms)
Of these five kinds, the first two may ordain as bhikkhus, the other three may not. So, given that the āsitta-paṇḍaka —the type closest to what we call a "homosexual" today— is permitted to ordain, I think we have to take it that such persons are in fact capable of awakening
This is not canonical. Might be written by gays, gay advocates or just confused people. Might be true of course but i am not convinced.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:48 pm
Those pesky gays at it again
Don't villify gay people...
It's difficult to be a gay monk.
A heterosexual monk is basically hardly allowed near women, whereas the gays can have young novices attend to them, give them massages and they see eachother naked, attend their bathing, sit in a sauna and sleep in the same room.
This is completely different level.
It's like a straight monk being ordained with nuns and have young girls attend to him.
Last edited by User13866 on Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:48 pm
Those pesky gays at it again
Don't villify gay people...
It's just difficult to be a gay monk. A heterosexual monk is basically hardly allowed near women, whereas the gays can have young novices attend to them, give them massages and they see eachother naked, help each other with bathing even and sleep in the same room.
This is completely next level. It's like a straight monk being ordained with nuns.
I wasn't vilifying gay people. Whilst its true that it can be harder for a gay monk, it's not impossible to be restrained. You will also find that many straight monks will start feeling attracted to other monks too. They too will have to contend with it, and practice sense restraint.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:48 pm
You will also find that many straight monks will start feeling attracted to other monks too. They too will have to contend with it, and practice sense restraint.
Many? I don't think this is at all normal.
It's not that it's more difficult for gays, their every minute being there is a problem..
User13866 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:59 pm
Many? I don't think this is at all normal.
Like other animals, when straight human males don't have access to females, and when their sexual desire is strong, a number will tend to start sleeping with other males. This is what happens in prison.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User13866 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:59 pm
Many? I don't think this is at all normal.
Like other animals, when straight human males don't have access to females, and when their sexual desire is strong, a number will tend to start sleeping with other males. This is what happens in prison.
Straight men don't sleep with straight men in prison.
It's not that it's more difficult for gays, their every minute being there is a problem..
That would depend on their sense restraint. If its well developed, there isn't a problem at all. They are just surrounded by bones, bags of piss and shit and so on.
They might start sleeping with the gays yes. Straight men don't sleep with straight men in prison.
That does happen, two straight men sleeping with each other. It's just a way to get their sexual pleasure.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
It's not that it's more difficult for gays, their every minute being there is a problem..
That would depend on their sense restraint. If its well developed, there isn't a problem at all. They are just surrounded by bones, bags of piss and shit and so on.
They might start sleeping with the gays yes. Straight men don't sleep with straight men in prison.
That does happen, two straight men sleeping with each other. It's just a way to get their sexual pleasure.
I don't know what to tell you... Straight men aren't attracted to gay men. Very few will even consider making use of the gays. Most straight men are repulsed by the idea of doing gay things.
The idea of two straight men doing anyhing gay is entirely awkward and a nonstrater.
It's not that it's more difficult for gays, their every minute being there is a problem..
That would depend on their sense restraint. If its well developed, there isn't a problem at all. They are just surrounded by bones, bags of piss and shit and so on.
They might start sleeping with the gays yes. Straight men don't sleep with straight men in prison.
That does happen, two straight men sleeping with each other. It's just a way to get their sexual pleasure.
I don't know what to tell you... Straight men aren't attracted to gay men. Very few will even consider making use of the gays. Most straight men are repulsed by the idea of doing gay things.
Straight men aren't attracted to men, no, but they can still have sex with men. You just said yourself that straight men will have sex with gay men. They will also have sex with each other. Gay men aren't attracted to women either, but a number of gay men will sleep with women too. They do so, because it's just the sex and orgasm they are interested in. The same with straight men. For straight men, the majority of the time this behaviour occurs when there is no access to available females. Prison is the best example in our world today. Sexual desire is strong, and just like other animals, when no females are around men will go with other men. This isn't all straight men of course. Some won't at all, but a number will.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:04 pm
That would depend on their sense restraint. If its well developed, there isn't a problem at all.
If it's well developed then maybe stay in lay life and no need to ordain.
Otherwise it's rules for the but not for me..
Well, I don't see why they have to. If they want to renounce the world completely, that is a good thing. Ordaining is the best way to do it, and so is the best way to practice. In terms of Theravāda there is no issue with them ordaining. There can of course be cultural opposition to it. As I said earlier, Pa Auk won't ordain any known homosexual. I don't know the ins and outs of as to why, but I suspect it's more to do with cultural attitudes than a matter of the Vinaya.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Prison is the best example in our world today. Sexual desire is strong, and just like other animals, when no females are around men will go with other men. This isn't all straight men of course. Some won't at all, but a number will.
I've never heard of two straight men doing gay things in prison.
I've heard of men who claim to be straight rape other straight men.
I've heard of supposedly straight men make use of gay men.
I have never heard of two straight men engaging in consensual gayness.
If consensual gayness occurs among adult straight men this is incredibly rare, so rare that it's virtually non-existent.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:17 pm
If they want to renounce the world completely, that is a good thing. Ordaining is the best way to do it, and so is the best way to practice.
This is true for straight men. For gays this is not the same because they will be attracted to other monks.
A straight man doesn't live with bhikkhunis for a reason.
So why on earth would living with men be ideal for the gay?
