What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:17 pm Pa Auk won't ordain any known homosexual. I don't know the ins and outs of as to why, but I suspect it's more to do with cultural attitudes than a matter of the Vinaya.
Id be shocked if it's not because they assume that gays are pandaka..

I wasn't always of this opinion, if you read the other threads on this forum i was leaning to the gays not being pandaka.

However after using critical thinking and examining my biases i realized that i can't deny that pandaka most likely means gay.

Of course it's unfortunate and i know gay buddhists but i have to call it based on the merit of the argument rather than personal preference.
Last edited by User13866 on Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:18 pm
Prison is the best example in our world today. Sexual desire is strong, and just like other animals, when no females are around men will go with other men. This isn't all straight men of course. Some won't at all, but a number will.
I've never heard of two straight men doing gay things in prison.

I've heard of men who claim to be straight rape other straight men.

I've heard of supposedly straight men make use of gay men.

I have never heard of two straight men engaging in consensual gayness.

If consensual gayness occurs among adult straight men this is incredibly rare, so rare that it's virtually non-existent.
Having known people who were in prison (one for murder) these things do happen. It's also what we see in other animals too. Two lone lions will mate with each other, but it's a stretch to say they are homosexual. Once they find some lionesses, they then mate with them exclusively. Rape is a different issue. When another man rapes another, it can be a dominance thing. I'm not talking about rape here, but consensual sex between two straight men. It happens amongst straight women too, but to be fair women's sexuality is more fluid than male sexuality anyway. On it's occurrence, it depends on the context. It hardly occurs when a man has access to women, but in a context where that isn't the case then it occurs more frequently.
This is true for straight men. For gays this is not the same because they will be attracted to other monks.

A straight man doesn't live with bhikkhunis for a reason.
So why on earth would living with men be ideal for the gay?

They can be yes, and I did say it can be harder, but it's not impossible. Whilst the segregation of monks and nuns likely involves the idea of reducing chances of any violations of the Vinaya, it likely it's there due to the cultural norms of Iron Age India at the time too. Regardless, if we accept that the Buddha knew what a homosexual was, he never then made a rule prohibiting all gay men from ordaining. He made a rule against Paṇḍakas ordaining, which doesn't mean "all gay men". When you look at the story too, it's clear that the real issue was how the community was being viewed. They were being viewed negatively by having Paṇḍakas amongst them, which is why they were then banned. It doesn't suggest they were banned because of potential sexual encounters with other monks. A lot of the Vinaya rules are there because of how the wider society viewed such things, at the time. Monks and nuns can't dig earth for example, because Jains found it offensive to do so (because to them the earth also had consciousness).
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:33 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:18 pm
Prison is the best example in our world today. Sexual desire is strong, and just like other animals, when no females are around men will go with other men. This isn't all straight men of course. Some won't at all, but a number will.
I've never heard of two straight men doing gay things in prison.

I've heard of men who claim to be straight rape other straight men.

I've heard of supposedly straight men make use of gay men.

I have never heard of two straight men engaging in consensual gayness.

If consensual gayness occurs among adult straight men this is incredibly rare, so rare that it's virtually non-existent.
Having known people who were in prison (one for murder) these things do happen. It's also what we see in other animals too. Two lone lions will mate with each other, but it's a stretch to say they are homosexual. Once they find some lionesses, they then mate with them exclusively. Rape is a different issue. When another man rapes another, it can be a dominance thing. I'm not talking about rape here, but consensual sex between two straight men. It happens amongst straight women too, but to be fair women's sexuality is more fluid than male sexuality anyway. On it's occurrence, it depends on the context. It hardly occurs when a man has access to women, but in a context where that isn't the case then it occurs more frequently.
This is true for straight men. For gays this is not the same because they will be attracted to other monks.

A straight man doesn't live with bhikkhunis for a reason.
So why on earth would living with men be ideal for the gay?

They can be yes, and I did say it can be harder, but it's not impossible. Whilst the segregation of monks and nuns likely involves the idea of reducing chances of any violations of the Vinaya, it likely is there due to the cultural norms of Iron Age India at the time too. Regardless, if we accept that the Buddha knew what a homosexual was, he never then made a rule prohibiting all gay men from ordaining. He made a rule against Paṇḍakas ordaining, which doesn't mean "all gay men". When you look at the story too, it's clear that the real issue was how the community was being viewed. They were being viewed negatively by having Paṇḍakas amongst them, which is why they were then banned. It doesn't suggest they were banned because of potential sexual encounters with other monks. A lot of the Vinaya rules are there because of how the wider society viewed such things, at the time. Monks and nuns can't dig earth for example, because Jains found it offensive to do so (because to them the earth also had consciousness).
Well having been in prison myself i can tell you that we didn't have such things. We had gays doing with gays and possibly some non-gays doing with gays but we never identified anyone of these non gays doing with gays.

I assume that it's possible that some non-gays did go to the gays and managed for it not to get spread about but this is very unlikely because there was much gossip and people see where your moveabout.

You have to also consider that you can not liken two suppossedly straight monks to lions. Monks are strongly disincentivized from doing so and have little to no incentive to do so.

I would bet that in the known history of the bhikkhusangha no two straight men ever had to disrobe because they enganged eachother in consensual intercourse.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

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You have to also consider that you can not liken two suppossedly straight monks to lions. Monks are strongly disincentivized from doing so and have little to no incentive to do so.
Gay monks on the other hand are strongly incentivized to doing the gay stuff.

You say that it's possible for gay to restrain themselves but this is besides the point.

I've showed you how i arrive at the interpretation of the pandaka rule.

You are appealing to commentary which doesn't explain the analysis.

There is no point in discussing this in this manner because you aren't going to convince me by not adressing the analysis.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

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User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:59 pm
You have to also consider that you can not liken two suppossedly straight monks to lions. Monks are strongly disincentivized from doing so and have little to no incentive to do so.
Gay monks on the other hand are strongly incentivized to doing the gay stuff.

You say that it's possible for gay to restrain themselves but this is besides the point.

I've showed you how i arrive at the interpretation of the pandaka rule.

You are appealing to commentary which doesn't explain the analysis.

There is no point in discussing this in this manner because you aren't going to convince me by not adressing the analysis.
My first point didn't refer to the commentary at all. It was that in the context of the story, the man receiving the sex was called a Paṇḍaka whilst those who were "top" were not. It was also the men who slept with the Paṇḍaka who complained that the Sangha was ordaining Paṇḍakas, which suggests they didn't think of themselves as being Paṇḍaka despite sleeping with monk. In the Vinaya, sex with a Paṇḍaka is always framed in terms of the Paṇḍaka recieving sex through the anus or the mouth. It never addresses a monk receiving sex from a Paṇḍaka. Interestingly, even animals can be a Paṇḍaka.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by Sam Vara »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:18 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:17 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:07 pm Suppose a gay is allowed a going forth
Then the Gay goes to elder monks suggesting intercourse and they tell him
- Go away Gay, surely you will perish!
Then the Gay goes to junior monks suggesting intercourse and they tell him
- Go away Gay, surely you will perish!
Then the Gay goes to young novices suggesting intercourse and they tell him
- Go away Gay, surely you will perish!

Then the Gay goes to the laymen who are elephant keepers suggesting intercourse and they have intercourse with him and furthermore spread it about saying;

"These Buddhist monks are gay, surely even those who aren't gay have intercourse with the gays!"

Then the monks who ordained the gay say to eachother 'Well at least he wasn't a pandaka'...

I think this demonstrates beyond any doubt that the rule is meaningless if it's not taken to mean gay. I think gays aren't to be allowed ordination and all gay monks should be expelled.
I'm not sure I understand the point you are making here. Why would gay men having gone forth go to the elder monks suggesting intercourse? The gay monks I know remain celibate, as that is part of the understanding at the going forth. We don't have many elephant-keepers around here, but I suppose they might be more tempting... :shrug:
I don't think you want to understand.
Possibly not; it depends on what your intention is.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:09 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:59 pm
You have to also consider that you can not liken two suppossedly straight monks to lions. Monks are strongly disincentivized from doing so and have little to no incentive to do so.
Gay monks on the other hand are strongly incentivized to doing the gay stuff.

You say that it's possible for gay to restrain themselves but this is besides the point.

I've showed you how i arrive at the interpretation of the pandaka rule.

You are appealing to commentary which doesn't explain the analysis.

There is no point in discussing this in this manner because you aren't going to convince me by not adressing the analysis.
My first point didn't refer to the commentary at all. It was that in the context of the story, the man receiving the sex was called a Paṇḍaka whilst those who were "top" were not. It was also the men who slept with the Paṇḍaka who complained that the Sangha was ordaining Paṇḍakas, which suggests they didn't think of themselves as being Paṇḍaka despite sleeping with monk. In the Vinaya, sex with a Paṇḍaka is always framed in terms of the Paṇḍaka recieving sex through the anus or the mouth. It never addresses a monk receiving sex from a Paṇḍaka. Interestingly, even animals can be a Paṇḍaka.
But you also hold that pandaka can do with another pandaka?
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:17 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:09 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:59 pm
Gay monks on the other hand are strongly incentivized to doing the gay stuff.

You say that it's possible for gay to restrain themselves but this is besides the point.

I've showed you how i arrive at the interpretation of the pandaka rule.

You are appealing to commentary which doesn't explain the analysis.

There is no point in discussing this in this manner because you aren't going to convince me by not adressing the analysis.
My first point didn't refer to the commentary at all. It was that in the context of the story, the man receiving the sex was called a Paṇḍaka whilst those who were "top" were not. It was also the men who slept with the Paṇḍaka who complained that the Sangha was ordaining Paṇḍakas, which suggests they didn't think of themselves as being Paṇḍaka despite sleeping with monk. In the Vinaya, sex with a Paṇḍaka is always framed in terms of the Paṇḍaka recieving sex through the anus or the mouth. It never addresses a monk receiving sex from a Paṇḍaka. Interestingly, even animals can be a Paṇḍaka.
But you also hold that pandaka can do with another pandaka?
In all honesty, by the way it reads in the Vinaya it sounds like a Paṇḍaka can only have sex via the anus or mouth. The Vinaya only discusses a monk entering a Paṇḍaka via the anus or mouth. It never addresses a Paṇḍaka entering a monk via the anus or the mouth, suggesting they don't have a penis at all.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:33 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:17 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:09 pm

My first point didn't refer to the commentary at all. It was that in the context of the story, the man receiving the sex was called a Paṇḍaka whilst those who were "top" were not. It was also the men who slept with the Paṇḍaka who complained that the Sangha was ordaining Paṇḍakas, which suggests they didn't think of themselves as being Paṇḍaka despite sleeping with monk. In the Vinaya, sex with a Paṇḍaka is always framed in terms of the Paṇḍaka recieving sex through the anus or the mouth. It never addresses a monk receiving sex from a Paṇḍaka. Interestingly, even animals can be a Paṇḍaka.
But you also hold that pandaka can do with another pandaka?
In all honesty, by the way it reads in the Vinaya it sounds like a Paṇḍaka can only have sex via the anus or mouth. The Vinaya only discusses a monk entering a Paṇḍaka via the anus or mouth. It never addresses a Paṇḍaka entering a monk via the anus or the mouth, suggesting they don't have a penis at all.
I expect all honesty always.

Alternative interpretation is that when the gays make themselves available they usually want to be attacked or they offer to attack with mouth.

I've never heard of a straight man going to the gays to do the reverse.

Gays in approaching a hetero will usually say stuff like 'why attack with hand when you can attack me or let me attack with mouth'

I haven't heard of the opposite.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

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For a gay to engage a not gay it's generally going to be by the gay attacking with mouth or the gay getting attacked from the behind.

That is not unconceivable. The non-gay can basically close his eyes and think about womenfolk.

Therefore the gay's manhood doesn't come into play and you might get the impression that they don't have it when reading about these encounters.
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:43 pm

I expect all honesty always.

Alternative interpretation is that when the gays make themselves available they usually want to be attacked or they offer to attack with mouth.

I've never heard of a straight men going to the gays to do the reverse.

Gays in approaching a hetero will usually say stuff like 'why attack with hand when you can attack me or let me attack with mouth'

I haven't heard of the opposite.
That isn't true though. A lot of gay men won't ever be the receptive partner, and some hardly like using their mouth either. There are also a lot of straight men who enjoy being the receptive partner, either via their women partners or, sometimes, by other men or to themselves. Regardless, the Vinaya will cover all areas where the rule is broken. In the context of sleeping with a Paṇḍaka it never covers a monk receiving sex from a Paṇḍaka, meaning the Vinaya doesn't think such a situation is possible. The indication here is that the Vinaya has something like a eunuch in mind or that a Paṇḍakas are only men who receive sex, meaning the Vinaya is viewing such things like the Ancient Romans did. That is to say, a Paṇḍaka is someone who has compromised their masculinity.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:57 pm A lot of gay men won't ever be the receptive partner, and some hardly like using their mouth either.
I can see this to be true
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:57 pm There are also a lot of straight men who enjoy being the receptive partner, either via their women partners or, sometimes, by other men or to themselves.
I wouldn't classify these who like being backstabbed by other men as hetero
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:57 pm Regardless, the Vinaya will cover all areas where the rule is broken. In the context of sleeping with a Paṇḍaka it never covers a monk receiving sex from a Paṇḍaka, meaning the Vinaya doesn't think such a situation is possible. The indication here is that the Vinaya has something like a eunuch in mind.
Do you have a link at hand?
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:07 pm
Do you have a link at hand?
Here:
There are three kinds of females: a human female, a female spirit, a female animal. There are three kinds of hermaphrodites: a human hermaphrodite, a hermaphrodite spirit, a hermaphrodite animal. There are three kinds of paṇḍakas: a human paṇḍaka, a paṇḍaka spirit, a paṇḍaka animal. There are three kinds of males: a human male, a male spirit, a male animal.

He commits an offense entailing expulsion if he has sexual intercourse with a human female through three orifices: the anus, the vagina, or the mouth. … with a female spirit … He commits an offense entailing expulsion if he has sexual intercourse with a female animal through three orifices: the anus, the vagina, or the mouth. … with a human hermaphrodite … with a hermaphrodite spirit … He commits an offense entailing expulsion if he has sexual intercourse with a hermaphrodite animal through three orifices: the anus, the vagina, or the mouth. He commits an offense entailing expulsion if he has sexual intercourse with a human paṇḍaka through two orifices: the anus or the mouth. … with a paṇḍaka spirit … with a paṇḍaka animal … with a human male … with a male spirit … He commits an offense entailing expulsion if he has sexual intercourse with a male animal though two orifices: the anus or the mouth.

If a monk has the intention of sexual relations and he makes his penis enter the anus of a human female … the vagina of a human female … the mouth of a human female, he commits an offense entailing expulsion. If a monk has the intention of sexual relations and he makes his penis enter the anus of a female spirit … the anus of a female animal … the anus of a human hermaphrodite … the anus of a hermaphrodite spirit … the anus of a hermaphrodite animal … the vagina of a hermaphrodite animal … the mouth of a hermaphrodite animal, he commits an offense entailing expulsion. If a monk has the intention of sexual relations and he makes his penis enter the anus of a human paṇḍaka … the anus of a paṇḍaka spirit … the anus of a paṇḍaka animal … the anus of a human male … the anus of a male spirit … the anus of a male animal … the mouth of a male animal, he commits an offense entailing expulsion.

Enemy monks bring a human paṇḍaka … a paṇḍaka spirit … a paṇḍaka animal to a monk and make it sit down so that his penis enters its anus … its mouth. If he agrees to the entry, and he agrees to having entered, and he agrees to the remaining, and he agrees to the taking out, he commits an offense entailing expulsion. … If he does not agree … there is no offense.

Enemy monks bring a paṇḍaka animal that is awake … asleep … intoxicated … insane … heedless … dead but undecomposed … dead and mostly undecomposed … he commits an offense entailing expulsion. They bring one that is dead and mostly decomposed to a monk and make it sit down so that his penis enters its anus … its mouth. If he agrees to the entry, and he agrees to having entered, and he agrees to the remaining, and he agrees to the taking out, he commits a serious offense. … If he does not agree … there is no offense.
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ript=latin

Also notice how having sex with a human male is treated differently to having sex with a Paṇḍaka, which gives a bit more support to seeing a Paṇḍaka as a eunuch.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:10 pm ...
Thank you.

It is a hard sale that a yakkha can be 'eunuch' but lets leave that aside.

I think the question is whether a human male/female can also be a human pandaka.

On face value i think the answer seems to be no.

Do you know if they ask both questions when ordaining, are you a male, and are you a pandaka?
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Re: What is Pandaka? (Paṇḍaka) Gay?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:10 pm Also notice how having sex with a human male is treated differently to having sex with a Paṇḍaka, which gives a bit more support to seeing a Paṇḍaka as a eunuch.
Yes this is also evidence suggesting that a human male can not be a human pandaka.

On the other hand it could be that one could have it enter a straight man perhaps unconsentually and it is then not a pandaka but this is not very likely.

More likely than not it seems that pandaka is neither a human male nor a human female.

Maybe transgender then :shrug:
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