looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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salayatananirodha
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looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by salayatananirodha »

i recall reading a sutta that i think was in anguttara nikaya. it said that other religions could teach the dhamma up to but not including anattā.
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
SarathW
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by SarathW »

The closest I can think of is:
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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salayatananirodha
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by salayatananirodha »

it's not this one
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Sam Vara
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by Sam Vara »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:22 am i recall reading a sutta that i think was in anguttara nikaya. it said that other religions could teach the dhamma up to but not including anattā.
Not the AN, but what you describe sounds like MN 11:

https://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
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robertk
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by robertk »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:27 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:22 am i recall reading a sutta that i think was in anguttara nikaya. it said that other religions could teach the dhamma up to but not including anattā.
Not the AN, but what you describe sounds like MN 11:

https://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
This sutta shows that the truly important teaching of Buddha is that of anatta.
as the Commentary says
p.59 sammohavinodani (the dispeller of delusion)
241: "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathaagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Enlightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened Ones. For such wanderers and ascetics (taapasa) as the master Sarabha.nga are mighty and powerful and are able to express ‘the impermanent and the painful’: [but] they are unable to express ‘no-self’. For if they were able to express ‘no-self’ in a present assembly, there would be penetration of path and fruition in the present assembly. For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious. That is why the Master, when teaching the characteristic of no-self, taught it by means of impermanence or by means of pain or by means of both impermanence and pain. But here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain.
SarathW
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:27 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:22 am i recall reading a sutta that i think was in anguttara nikaya. it said that other religions could teach the dhamma up to but not including anattā.
Not the AN, but what you describe sounds like MN 11:

https://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
:goodpost:
“Wanderers of other sects who ask thus may be answered in this way: ‘How then, friends, is the goal one or many?’ Answering rightly, the wanderers of other sects would answer thus: ‘Friends, the goal is one, not many.’
What is the meaning of the above?
I thought there is only one goal that is to attain Nibbana.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by SarathW »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:22 am i recall reading a sutta that i think was in anguttara nikaya. it said that other religions could teach the dhamma up to but not including anattā.
It also claimed that other religions do not describe various factors such as clinging etc. in full detail.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sam Vara
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:57 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:27 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:22 am i recall reading a sutta that i think was in anguttara nikaya. it said that other religions could teach the dhamma up to but not including anattā.
Not the AN, but what you describe sounds like MN 11:

https://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
:goodpost:
“Wanderers of other sects who ask thus may be answered in this way: ‘How then, friends, is the goal one or many?’ Answering rightly, the wanderers of other sects would answer thus: ‘Friends, the goal is one, not many.’
What is the meaning of the above?
I thought there is only one goal that is to attain Nibbana.
:thinking:
Yes, well done, I'd not noticed that point before. :anjali:

The term "answering rightly" is Sammā byākaramānā. They are in fact "answering rightly" (or completely) because even though they do not understand anatta, the goal is indeed one. They understand that, although presumably none of them have attained the goal.
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:04 pm
SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:57 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:27 am

Not the AN, but what you describe sounds like MN 11:

https://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
:goodpost:
“Wanderers of other sects who ask thus may be answered in this way: ‘How then, friends, is the goal one or many?’ Answering rightly, the wanderers of other sects would answer thus: ‘Friends, the goal is one, not many.’
What is the meaning of the above?
I thought there is only one goal that is to attain Nibbana.
:thinking:
Yes, well done, I'd not noticed that point before. :anjali:

The term "answering rightly" is Sammā byākaramānā. They are in fact "answering rightly" (or completely) because even though they do not understand anatta, the goal is indeed one. They understand that, although presumably none of them have attained the goal.
I've not noticed that before either. Very interesting. It makes sense to me that all of the other ascetics were aiming for the same thing, and it would explain why nibbāna as a concept was also used by other traditions at the time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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zerotime
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by zerotime »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:51 pm I've not noticed that before either. Very interesting. It makes sense to me that all of the other ascetics were aiming for the same thing, and it would explain why nibbāna as a concept was also used by other traditions at the time.
yes. Nibbana is an universal word related with a "cooling". Delusion is produced by an innate heat, an effervescence out of control causing the delusive experience of Reality. The word was used before Buddha times as you writes. The experience that we name "nibbana" also arise in other beliefs, although without the Dhamma teaching, this is interpreted and integrated into their own atta beliefs. And therefore there is no entrance in the Dhamma Path for a final nibbana which includes the anatta teaching.
The Path to get freedom from the Wheel of rebirth is not completed because the nibbana existence but with anatta. According wisdom, the nibbana experience and its integration in the Reality will be more or less complete, and then repeated in successive rebirths, in a progressive eradication of fetters and delusion.

Then in example, if somebody experience nibbana but he/she don't know anatta, quickly it will be integrated into a wider atta notion. And frequently they explain that experience like "at those moment it was not me, it was the All, God, Unity" and etcetera. Or also in example, we can read inside the Gospels some things like "I bring you the eternal life"... This clearly shows a nibbana experience although without anatta teaching, and then logically fitted into a wider atta notion of a God. After death, these holy beings are reborn in the Brahma realm which is the higher rebirth as we know. There are some Suttas in where the Buddha recommended that realm to some brahmins while the access to Dhamma was not possible for them at that moment (because they wished only that, because their available time, or whatever reason).

Nibbana is a word for a transcendental substrate common to all great Religions. It is the map and the later integration in Reality what makes the difference between them. In the case of Buddhism, it is the access to Dhamma teaching on anatta what will make nibbana the definitive nibbana.

There is a good talk from Buddhadasa on this issue:
http://dhammatalks.net/Books2/Bhikkhu_B ... ligion.htm


This is very interesting, because despite our obsession for nibbana, keeping the Dhamma teaching can be so important or perhaps more.
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Sam Vara
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:51 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:04 pm
SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:57 am
:goodpost:



What is the meaning of the above?
I thought there is only one goal that is to attain Nibbana.
:thinking:
Yes, well done, I'd not noticed that point before. :anjali:

The term "answering rightly" is Sammā byākaramānā. They are in fact "answering rightly" (or completely) because even though they do not understand anatta, the goal is indeed one. They understand that, although presumably none of them have attained the goal.
I've not noticed that before either. Very interesting. It makes sense to me that all of the other ascetics were aiming for the same thing, and it would explain why nibbāna as a concept was also used by other traditions at the time.
Yes, and even if their methods and their goal is completely different, I guess they would be "answering rightly" or "giving a complete answer" in accordance with their own understanding. But I think your explanation makes most sense.
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by Bundokji »

I think DN1 would be a good one.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by TRobinson465 »

Sammanaphala sutta possibly
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by befriend »

Maybe your thinking of the shorter and longer discourse of the lions roar sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: looking for a particular sutta comparing dhamma to other religions

Post by Mahabrahma »

The emptiness, no-self phenomena is quite a lightspeed transition from the past that gives people a hope to grasp the infinite in understanding, which is ultimately the goal of all books of knowledge. Do not think Buddha has been deceiving you.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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