When did handling money become so common?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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TRobinson465
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by TRobinson465 »

santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:23 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:18 am
santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:43 am
Like already said, your estimate based on your "personal experience" and "corroboration with others" simply doesn't hold any water. If I wanted to, I could just say the same exact opposite to you based on my own "personal experience" and "corroboration with others" and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Correct. but you would be lying about it if you said that about your personal experiences. I am not lying about mine.
Well, you could very well are lying thru your teeth as we speak. How do we know?? How would anyone know??
I could, but i am not. theres just no way for you to know if what me or anyone else is saying is true unless you of course, go out into the world and visit some monastaries to see for yourself, maybe attend some ordination ceremonies to see how its actually done in real life, or you develop abhinna powers and read my mind and see that i am telling the truth. But even SDC shockingly thought all temples have lay stewards, so i realize getting a large sample size may not be the easiest thing for everyone. But given that anyone can just lie on the internet about anything they want, including me, robertK, DNS, and pretty much everyone else who contributed to this conversation, perhaps the internet is not the best place to get all of your info? do some balanced real world research and actually see if what these things on the internet say are true.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by TRobinson465 »

robertk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:05 am
I stayed at a strict forest temple once - so hard as all we were given was a bamboo platform with a makeshift leaf roof and no walls, to sleep in. Many monks taking the sitting practice (never lie down). I only lasted 2 weeks.
Thats impressive, ive only done the not lying down thing for one night at a time as a monk. and i dont think i can do it for 2 weeks. maybe 3 days at best.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Anyways. most of my points and reasoning are below and i tire of this conversation and see it as frivolous chatter that is significantly wasting my valuable time.

viewtopic.php?p=714323#p714323

But to sum it up my final points. Yes monks should not handle money, its just an unfortunate thing that became (seemingly) common probably because of industrialization and it being pretty hard to work around not using money for a lot of temples, especially ones with no lay staff.

I am of the view that i cannot change what already happened starting at least 150 years ago and have to deal with how things are now, not how they are supposed to be. The Buddha also allowed abolishing the minor rules of training so i dont think its truly evil to break the rules the same way it is to break stuff like the 5 precepts, the 4 parajikas or the 13 sanghadisesas, but of course they should still follow all the rules where possible and to the best of thier ability since there was no formal abolition. I mainly give necessities but i still do things like drop money into donation boxes of temples with no lay stewards because what else are you gonna do? The sangha is the incomparable merit field of the world regardless.

I am not convinced doing that destroys buddhism, especially when compared to not ever going to monastaries at all and calling monks who break any rule a thief when almost no monk doenst break any rule at all from time to time, as many vinaya rules count as broken even when done unintentionally or mindlessly (which is why at the temples i ordained at, they do the pacittiya confession in pali every single night, knowing they probably broke some rule during the day). Most monks i know are very earnest in thier practice, even ones who do handle money from time to time and shouldnt be compared to the small minority who are true charlatans. It also seems (from my POV) like itd be more destructive to buddhism to force every monastary without permanent lay staff or the right conditions for strict vinaya adherence to simply close when there are many who can benefit from thier presence (just a utilitarian societal benefit reasoning i have). Seems like a recipe for keeping Buddhism stranded in only a few parts of the world unless another ashoka comes out and sponsors its spread, and for a takeover of only the big popular temples, the latter i guess is fine from my POV since the main place(s) i go to fall into that category but others here may not like it so be careful what you wish for!

I dont believe laypeople should criticize monks over it since it is somewhat to very common and is understandable given the conditions of the modern world and im pretty sure theres a sutta out there that says its not good to try to find fault in others let alone monks. improving yourself should always the first goal.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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robertk
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by robertk »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:42 am
robertk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:05 am
I stayed at a strict forest temple once - so hard as all we were given was a bamboo platform with a makeshift leaf roof and no walls, to sleep in. Many monks taking the sitting practice (never lie down). I only lasted 2 weeks.
Thats impressive, ive only done the not lying down thing for one night at a time as a monk. and i dont think i can do it for 2 weeks. maybe 3 days at best.
Ah I need to clarify. I certainly didn't take up the sitting practice. Just surviving lying down half the time was hard enough. I meant I only lasted staying there for 2 weeks.
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by TRobinson465 »

robertk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:49 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:42 am
robertk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:05 am
I stayed at a strict forest temple once - so hard as all we were given was a bamboo platform with a makeshift leaf roof and no walls, to sleep in. Many monks taking the sitting practice (never lie down). I only lasted 2 weeks.
Thats impressive, ive only done the not lying down thing for one night at a time as a monk. and i dont think i can do it for 2 weeks. maybe 3 days at best.
Ah I need to clarify. I certainly didn't take up the sitting practice. Just surviving lying down half the time was hard enough. I meant I only lasted staying there for 2 weeks.
Oh well still impressive. Even staying at a place where the sitting practice is done for a period is pretty hardcore. :anjali:

Ive only ever stayed at places where they mention it as something to try for a night. never known anyone who even attempted it for more than a full day and night or two.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
User13866
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by User13866 »

90% is quite conservative according to Bhikkhu Subhuti.
Most monasteries (about 98% of them) break the rules on money.
https://americanmonk.org/where-to-ordain/
I am genuinely curious how you would avoid using money.
Suppose you are a western monk in Sri Lanka and it's time to renew your passport which costs 150$. What do you do?
santa100
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by santa100 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:39 am I could, but i am not. theres just no way for you to know if what me or anyone else is saying is true unless you of course, go out into the world and visit some monastaries to see for yourself, maybe attend some ordination ceremonies to see how its actually done in real life, or you develop abhinna powers and read my mind and see that i am telling the truth. But even SDC shockingly thought all temples have lay stewards, so i realize getting a large sample size may not be the easiest thing for everyone. But given that anyone can just lie on the internet about anything they want, including me, robertK, DNS, and pretty much everyone else who contributed to this conversation, perhaps the internet is not the best place to get all of your info? do some balanced real world research and actually see if what these things on the internet say are true.
And that's my whole point. You are not telling the truth, at least not yet. It is exactly because of my balanced real world research that leads to the problem with your claim. Now, there are a total of 48 countries in Asia. In order for you to back up your claim that "90+% of monks in Asia handle money", you'd have to complete all the steps below:

1. Visit all 48 countries.
2. In each country, visit every single registered temples in that country.
3. Document the head count in each temple, and record the number of monks who handle money.
4. Tally the total number of violators against the grand total of all monks in Asia.
5. Divided number of violators by total head count of all monks in Asia and multiply by 100 to get the final figure.

So, unless you've completed all the steps listed above, your claim would still remain just your own opinion. Actually it shouldn't be just you. Even for some world's most renowned bhikkhus, before s/he can come up with some figure, s/he would have to do all of the above. Anything short of that, and the bhikkhu would've violated the 4th precept.
sunnat
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by sunnat »

After many centuries, millennia even, the essential character of money as commodity based ( ie. kind of solid, real like a gold coin ) changes overnight to something based on a government decree and the faith in that government extends to a foreign nation that at that time ( the seventies ) is engaged in a very brutal war on the region. Money can now be seen as representing delusion, of no intrinsic value, something no longer real or to be trusted.

I wonder if the above ‘flight of fancy’ correlates with the time of the OP q and also whether monastics who handle money handle (value?) gold equally blithely.
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robertk
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by robertk »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:34 am 90% is quite conservative according to Bhikkhu Subhuti.
Most monasteries (about 98% of them) break the rules on money.
https://americanmonk.org/where-to-ordain/
I am genuinely curious how you would avoid using money.
Suppose you are a western monk in Sri Lanka and it's time to renew your passport which costs 150$. What do you do?
I am an occasional kappiya for a bhikkhu and am able to handle such things or give the money to another layman who can do it.
asahi
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by asahi »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:34 am I am genuinely curious how you would avoid using money.
Suppose you are a western monk in Sri Lanka and it's time to renew your passport which costs 150$. What do you do?
Couldnt you inform one of the devotees that your visa is going to expires soon ? Surely they shall renew it for you without saying you needs money .
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by User13866 »

robertk wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:56 pm
User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:34 am 90% is quite conservative according to Bhikkhu Subhuti.
Most monasteries (about 98% of them) break the rules on money.
https://americanmonk.org/where-to-ordain/
I am genuinely curious how you would avoid using money.
Suppose you are a western monk in Sri Lanka and it's time to renew your passport which costs 150$. What do you do?
I am an occasional kappiya for a bhikkhu and am able to handle such things or give the money to another layman who can do it.
asahi wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:25 pm Couldnt you inform one of the devotees that your visa is going to expires soon ? Surely they shall renew it for you without saying you needs money .
May all bhikkhus have lay people to help with these things.

These are kind of expensive compared to robes & bowl which one can find or make oneself.
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Sam Vara
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Sam Vara »

santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:39 am I could, but i am not. theres just no way for you to know if what me or anyone else is saying is true unless you of course, go out into the world and visit some monastaries to see for yourself, maybe attend some ordination ceremonies to see how its actually done in real life, or you develop abhinna powers and read my mind and see that i am telling the truth. But even SDC shockingly thought all temples have lay stewards, so i realize getting a large sample size may not be the easiest thing for everyone. But given that anyone can just lie on the internet about anything they want, including me, robertK, DNS, and pretty much everyone else who contributed to this conversation, perhaps the internet is not the best place to get all of your info? do some balanced real world research and actually see if what these things on the internet say are true.
And that's my whole point. You are not telling the truth, at least not yet. It is exactly because of my balanced real world research that leads to the problem with your claim. Now, there are a total of 48 countries in Asia. In order for you to back up your claim that "90+% of monks in Asia handle money", you'd have to complete all the steps below:

1. Visit all 48 countries.
2. In each country, visit every single registered temples in that country.
3. Document the head count in each temple, and record the number of monks who handle money.
4. Tally the total number of violators against the grand total of all monks in Asia.
5. Divided number of violators by total head count of all monks in Asia and multiply by 100 to get the final figure.

So, unless you've completed all the steps listed above, your claim would still remain just your own opinion. Actually it shouldn't be just you. Even for some world's most renowned bhikkhus, before s/he can come up with some figure, s/he would have to do all of the above. Anything short of that, and the bhikkhu would've violated the 4th precept.
Would TRobinson465 really need to do all that? I think most people would get the general idea that s/he is talking about a generalisation, based on long personal experience, expressed as a percentage. Most of us use percentage terms as a sort of estimate, without expecting people to think in terms of scientific accuracy.

As someone who has limited experience of monasticism in S.E. Asia, I think TRobinson465's and Robert's thoughts are useful in filling in the gaps.
santa100
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by santa100 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:15 pm
santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:39 am I could, but i am not. theres just no way for you to know if what me or anyone else is saying is true unless you of course, go out into the world and visit some monastaries to see for yourself, maybe attend some ordination ceremonies to see how its actually done in real life, or you develop abhinna powers and read my mind and see that i am telling the truth. But even SDC shockingly thought all temples have lay stewards, so i realize getting a large sample size may not be the easiest thing for everyone. But given that anyone can just lie on the internet about anything they want, including me, robertK, DNS, and pretty much everyone else who contributed to this conversation, perhaps the internet is not the best place to get all of your info? do some balanced real world research and actually see if what these things on the internet say are true.
And that's my whole point. You are not telling the truth, at least not yet. It is exactly because of my balanced real world research that leads to the problem with your claim. Now, there are a total of 48 countries in Asia. In order for you to back up your claim that "90+% of monks in Asia handle money", you'd have to complete all the steps below:

1. Visit all 48 countries.
2. In each country, visit every single registered temples in that country.
3. Document the head count in each temple, and record the number of monks who handle money.
4. Tally the total number of violators against the grand total of all monks in Asia.
5. Divided number of violators by total head count of all monks in Asia and multiply by 100 to get the final figure.

So, unless you've completed all the steps listed above, your claim would still remain just your own opinion. Actually it shouldn't be just you. Even for some world's most renowned bhikkhus, before s/he can come up with some figure, s/he would have to do all of the above. Anything short of that, and the bhikkhu would've violated the 4th precept.
Would TRobinson465 really need to do all that? I think most people would get the general idea that s/he is talking about a generalisation, based on long personal experience, expressed as a percentage. Most of us use percentage terms as a sort of estimate, without expecting people to think in terms of scientific accuracy.

As someone who has limited experience of monasticism in S.E. Asia, I think TRobinson465's and Robert's thoughts are useful in filling in the gaps.
I think you missed one of my posts on this thread where I said had he simply said that he saw "many monks in Thailand (or Sri Lanka or whichever country he's been to) handle money", i would have nothing to push back. But no, he said: "90+% of monks IN ASIA (as a whole entire continent) handle money". Now this's become a claim that'd require evidence, unless one thinks that Thailand and SriLanka are the only 2 countries that make up the ASIA continent. Otherwise, that'll be considered false speech. And as already mentioned, this should not be limited to just him, but also to you, me, any DW member, even the world's most renowned bhikkhus. I know there's some bhikkhu out there who expressed similar sentiment and also threw some random figure out there. But as long as they have not follow thru with due-process and objective data, they too would've violated the 4th precept.
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by DNS »

Some examples from Ven. Dhammika's The Broken Buddha book.
For example, the overwhelming majority of monks ‘handle money,’ to use the
curious Theravadin phrase. They buy, they sell, they have bank accounts, they
accept donations, sometimes they even demand them, and this is looked upon as
perfectly normal, although it is against the Vinaya. Some more finicky monks
might insist that any cash given to them be put in an envelope so that they don’t
actually have physical contact with it, thus conforming to the letter of the rule
while ignoring its intent.
pg.25
When I first arrived in Singapore I briefly got to know a loud but rather cheerful
Thai monk and in the course of conversation asked him why he had joined the
Sangha. He told me he and a friend had put all their money in a nightclub in
Bangkok and shortly after its opening the river flooded. There was six inches of
water on the floor for several weeks and his investment, although unfortunately not
the water, all went down the drain. He had ordained, he said, to try to get enough
money to start up another nightclub.
pg.32
This monk that he met actually joined the Sangha for the sole purpose of raising money to restart his nightclub?! (knowing that the laity give generous amounts of money to the monks)
Not surprisingly the greatest hypocrisy within the Theravadin Sangha revolves
around money. As pointed out before, the overwhelming majority of monks quite
openly accepts and uses money, and in this sense at least they are being honest and
realistic. This is the one rule that nearly all monks are prepared to be flexible
about. The majority are therefore only guilty of hypocrisy in that they disregard
this rule while still making a big show of other equally obsolete or less important
ones. It is however, the fundamentalists who pride themselves on being ‘pure’ and
on ‘upholding Vinaya’ who are the most hypocritical in this respect.
pg.49
Again, not scientific surveys, but when we have this many reports from this many people, both laity and monks, we can safely say that it is quite common.

The Broken Buddha
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Ceisiwr
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is why I’m thankful for the Thai Forest Tradition.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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