When did handling money become so common?

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santa100
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by santa100 »

DNS wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:40 pm This monk that he met actually joined the Sangha for the sole purpose of raising money to restart his nightclub?! (knowing that the laity give generous amounts of money to the monks)
All the more reason for the 3 key issues I raised thruout this thread (the 90+% claim is only one of them, and probably is the least important one):

1. Directly place cash/money into the hands of full-time monks while fully aware of the Vinaya rule against it.
2. Normalize the act of monks breaking the precepts simply because a majority of them in some temples are doing it.
3. Deliberately cook up some figures, like claiming "90+% of monks in Asia handle money" without a single piece of evidence to back that up.
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Sam Vara
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Sam Vara »

santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:26 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:15 pm
santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am
And that's my whole point. You are not telling the truth, at least not yet. It is exactly because of my balanced real world research that leads to the problem with your claim. Now, there are a total of 48 countries in Asia. In order for you to back up your claim that "90+% of monks in Asia handle money", you'd have to complete all the steps below:

1. Visit all 48 countries.
2. In each country, visit every single registered temples in that country.
3. Document the head count in each temple, and record the number of monks who handle money.
4. Tally the total number of violators against the grand total of all monks in Asia.
5. Divided number of violators by total head count of all monks in Asia and multiply by 100 to get the final figure.

So, unless you've completed all the steps listed above, your claim would still remain just your own opinion. Actually it shouldn't be just you. Even for some world's most renowned bhikkhus, before s/he can come up with some figure, s/he would have to do all of the above. Anything short of that, and the bhikkhu would've violated the 4th precept.
Would TRobinson465 really need to do all that? I think most people would get the general idea that s/he is talking about a generalisation, based on long personal experience, expressed as a percentage. Most of us use percentage terms as a sort of estimate, without expecting people to think in terms of scientific accuracy.

As someone who has limited experience of monasticism in S.E. Asia, I think TRobinson465's and Robert's thoughts are useful in filling in the gaps.
I think you missed one of my posts on this thread where I said had he simply said that he saw "many monks in Thailand (or Sri Lanka or whichever country he's been to) handle money", i would have nothing to push back. But no, he said: "90+% of monks IN ASIA (as a whole entire continent) handle money". Now this's become a claim that'd require evidence, unless one thinks that Thailand and SriLanka are the only 2 countries that make up the ASIA continent. Otherwise, that'll be considered false speech. And as already mentioned, this should not be limited to just him, but also to you, me, any DW member, even the world's most renowned bhikkhus. I know there's some bhikkhu out there who expressed similar sentiment and also threw some random figure out there. But as long as they have not follow thru with due-process and objective data, they too would've violated the 4th precept.
Well, we all "throw out random figures" to make our point. I do it all the time, and here you are doing it in an earlier thread:
The fact that a total stranger on the internet all of a sudden proclaiming themselves to have attained Noble status without prompting IS already dodgy in and of itself! I'd say out of those who self-proclaim without prompting, 99.99999% would be fake. Hence by self-proclaiming, one has already turned himself into a second-class citizen!
viewtopic.php?p=711845#p711845

Holding people to impossibly exacting standards in these cases seems like a recipe for conflict.
santa100
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by santa100 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:00 pm ...
That's why I said it's the least of my concern out of the 3 key issues. Do let me know your position on these issues please?
All the more reason for the 3 key issues I raised thruout this thread (the 90+% claim is only one of them, and probably is the least important one):

1. Directly place cash/money into the hands of full-time monks while fully aware of the Vinaya rule against it.
2. Normalize the act of monks breaking the precepts simply because a majority of them in some temples are doing it.
3. Deliberately cook up some figures, like claiming "90+% of monks in Asia handle money" without a single piece of evidence to back that up.

Especially keeping in mind DNS's interesting piece of info below:
DNS wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:40 pm This monk that he met actually joined the Sangha for the sole purpose of raising money to restart his nightclub?! (knowing that the laity give generous amounts of money to the monks)
User13866
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:45 pm This is why I’m thankful for the Thai Forest Tradition.
I know a TFT monk who is on a committee handling lots of money..

Wasn't there a scandal involving a TFT monk being accused of mismanaging money in NZ not that long ago?
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Sam Vara »

santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:02 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:00 pm ...
That's why I said it's the least of my concern out of the 3 key issues. Do let me know your position on these issues please?
All the more reason for the 3 key issues I raised thruout this thread (the 90+% claim is only one of them, and probably is the least important one):

1. Directly place cash/money into the hands of full-time monks while fully aware of the Vinaya rule against it.
2. Normalize the act of monks breaking the precepts simply because a majority of them in some temples are doing it.
3. Deliberately cook up some figures, like claiming "90+% of monks in Asia handle money" without a single piece of evidence to back that up.
1. I don't give monks cash. I give food for the kitchen, and put money in a designated box. I assume a lay kappiya of some sort then deals with the money. The last time I left money was in autumn 2021 when I stayed at a vihara and the lockdown meant that no lay supporters had been attending. The abbot even had to drive the lawnmower himself and cut the grass, which (so I was told) he did reluctantly. So I don't know whether monks handled the money.

2. I don't know how someone would "normalise" the breaking of precepts (or vinaya??). The monks either break them or they don't. I wouldn't encourage them, and as I am more familiar with Thai Forest monks who definitely don't handle money I was a bit shocked when I met monks who did. I acted as a kappiya for a monk in a different lineage, and his observance of vinaya seemed to be quite strict. Although I'm not an expert - I'm basing it on a comparison with the TFS monks.

3. As I've said, we nearly all "cook up figures". It's very different from telling a deliberate falsehood, such as saying that you have seen something you haven't. That's a deliberate lie, whereas the former is more like lax speech. Of which I am guilty! :embarassed:
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by TRobinson465 »

santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:26 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:15 pm
santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:50 am
And that's my whole point. You are not telling the truth, at least not yet. It is exactly because of my balanced real world research that leads to the problem with your claim. Now, there are a total of 48 countries in Asia. In order for you to back up your claim that "90+% of monks in Asia handle money", you'd have to complete all the steps below:

1. Visit all 48 countries.
2. In each country, visit every single registered temples in that country.
3. Document the head count in each temple, and record the number of monks who handle money.
4. Tally the total number of violators against the grand total of all monks in Asia.
5. Divided number of violators by total head count of all monks in Asia and multiply by 100 to get the final figure.

So, unless you've completed all the steps listed above, your claim would still remain just your own opinion. Actually it shouldn't be just you. Even for some world's most renowned bhikkhus, before s/he can come up with some figure, s/he would have to do all of the above. Anything short of that, and the bhikkhu would've violated the 4th precept.
Would TRobinson465 really need to do all that? I think most people would get the general idea that s/he is talking about a generalisation, based on long personal experience, expressed as a percentage. Most of us use percentage terms as a sort of estimate, without expecting people to think in terms of scientific accuracy.

As someone who has limited experience of monasticism in S.E. Asia, I think TRobinson465's and Robert's thoughts are useful in filling in the gaps.
I think you missed one of my posts on this thread where I said had he simply said that he saw "many monks in Thailand (or Sri Lanka or whichever country he's been to) handle money", i would have nothing to push back. But no, he said: "90+% of monks IN ASIA (as a whole entire continent) handle money". Now this's become a claim that'd require evidence, unless one thinks that Thailand and SriLanka are the only 2 countries that make up the ASIA continent. Otherwise, that'll be considered false speech. And as already mentioned, this should not be limited to just him, but also to you, me, any DW member, even the world's most renowned bhikkhus. I know there's some bhikkhu out there who expressed similar sentiment and also threw some random figure out there. But as long as they have not follow thru with due-process and objective data, they too would've violated the 4th precept.
Like I said b4 I rescinded that claim as being too specific as I do not have a scientific stat on it and altered it to that's what the impression I got was from personal experience visiting dozens of unrelated temples in Thailand and the US and from talking to Thai and Sri Lankan nationals who would likely know this stuff. Most people with significant sample sizes, from what I've seen, also put their guestimates at at least 90%. I have already acknowledged on this thread b4 and am doing it again now that 90%+ is too exact of a figure even tho it's an estimate based on anecdotal evidence. But apparently you don't differentiate between small and large mistakes which is why u compare earnest monks who follow most of the patimokkha with the small minority who are charlatans.

Like I said b4. In my OP I said "As you all know..." Assuming everyone here knew where I was coming from and that was foolish. Now that I think of it there's no logical reason at all to believe someone who spends hours and hours a week reading Buddhist texts and debating with strangers online would go to Buddhist temples in real life and talk to Buddhist country nationals and observe the same things I have. And those who do may just have a small sample size of visiting one or two temples that are not representative. Again. An erroneous assumption on my part.

I've even admitted earlier that the 90% thing was just my "opinion" even tho that's not what opinions are, it's a fact I observed those things it just may not be representative of the total population, although I have good reason to think it probably is. If you are going to use this thread to hinder actual productive discussion and hound me about scientific evidence with Harvard graphs that is impossible to obtain when I have already acknowledged my mistake and admitted I have no such scientific polls. I will take it up with the mods to see if this counts as breaking 2j of the terms of service.
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Sam Vara
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Sam Vara »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:45 pm This is why I’m thankful for the Thai Forest Tradition.
I know a TFT monk who is on a committee handling lots of money..

Wasn't there a scandal involving a TFT monk being accused of mismanaging money in NZ not that long ago?
Sure, monks sit on committees where large sums of money are discussed and decisions are made about how it is used. But I've always thought that to be different from physically handling the money. :shrug:
santa100
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by santa100 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:19 pm
santa100 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:02 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:00 pm ...
That's why I said it's the least of my concern out of the 3 key issues. Do let me know your position on these issues please?
All the more reason for the 3 key issues I raised thruout this thread (the 90+% claim is only one of them, and probably is the least important one):

1. Directly place cash/money into the hands of full-time monks while fully aware of the Vinaya rule against it.
2. Normalize the act of monks breaking the precepts simply because a majority of them in some temples are doing it.
3. Deliberately cook up some figures, like claiming "90+% of monks in Asia handle money" without a single piece of evidence to back that up.
1. I don't give monks cash. I give food for the kitchen, and put money in a designated box. I assume a lay kappiya of some sort then deals with the money. The last time I left money was in autumn 2021 when I stayed at a vihara and the lockdown meant that no lay supporters had been attending. The abbot even had to drive the lawnmower himself and cut the grass, which (so I was told) he did reluctantly. So I don't know whether monks handled the money.

2. I don't know how someone would "normalise" the breaking of precepts (or vinaya??). The monks either break them or they don't. I wouldn't encourage them, and as I am more familiar with Thai Forest monks who definitely don't handle money I was a bit shocked when I met monks who did. I acted as a kappiya for a monk in a different lineage, and his observance of vinaya seemed to be quite strict. Although I'm not an expert - I'm basing it on a comparison with the TFS monks.

3. As I've said, we nearly all "cook up figures". It's very different from telling a deliberate falsehood, such as saying that you have seen something you haven't. That's a deliberate lie, whereas the former is more like lax speech. Of which I am guilty! :embarassed:
Thank you for your input:

1. I gave TRobinson465 the same exact advice but he doesn't seem to change his mind.

2. Same here, but again, thruout this entire thread, TRobinson465 sounds like he's normalizing it, so I'll let TRobinson465 clarifies his position regarding #2

3. Thank you TRobinson465 for clarifying #3. I have no further comment.
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Sam Vara
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Sam Vara »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:20 pm
I've even admitted earlier that the 90% thing was just my "opinion" even tho that's not what opinions are, it's a fact I observed those things it just may not be representative of the total population, although I have good reason to think it probably is. If you are going to use this thread to hinder actual productive discussion and hound me about scientific evidence with Harvard graphs that is impossible to obtain when I have already acknowledged my mistake and admitted I have no such scientific polls. I will take it up with the mods to see if this counts as breaking 2j of the terms of service.
So far it doesn't, but it would do if you were to explicitly request another member to desist.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Some people will argue over anything.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by santa100 »

Like Sam said, we're nearly all guilty of that also :embarassed:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:45 pm This is why I’m thankful for the Thai Forest Tradition.
I know a TFT monk who is on a committee handling lots of money..

Wasn't there a scandal involving a TFT monk being accused of mismanaging money in NZ not that long ago?
I think so.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User13866
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by User13866 »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:22 pm
User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:45 pm This is why I’m thankful for the Thai Forest Tradition.
I know a TFT monk who is on a committee handling lots of money..

Wasn't there a scandal involving a TFT monk being accused of mismanaging money in NZ not that long ago?
Sure, monks sit on committees where large sums of money are discussed and decisions are made about how it is used. But I've always thought that to be different from physically handling the money. :shrug:
It is true that there are lay committees who accept money, but the monk needs to be very careful not to get involved with donations of money. This is covered in NP10. There are protocols of speech that one must use when dealing with helpers and connecting them with donors. There is only a thin line between the two and when it is crossed, the whole donation can be made unallowable for the whole of saṅgha.

Resident monks who use money often give a small portion of their gains back to the monastery, or they build an entirely new monastery from such gains. If you do the math, 98% of monks use money and therefore, the majority of the monasteries in the world are not allowable.

https://americanmonk.org/are-buddhist-m ... use-money/
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by User13866 »

I am not a vinaya expert but as i understand it, a monk can't be involved at all.

If the donation is made to the committee and a monk is on that committee then the money becomes 'monk money' and anything bought with that money becomes unallowable.

For one who uses unallowable items it is an offense that requires rehabilitation and it can be a big deal
sāpattikassa, bhikkhave, nirayaṃ vā vadāmi tiracchānayoniṃ vā’’ti
“A monk who has an offense, I say will go to the hell or animal (peta/ghost) realms”.

VINAYAPIṬAKE SĀRATTHADĪPANĪ-ṬĪKĀ (TATIYO BHĀGO) MM_PARA 222
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Re: When did handling money become so common?

Post by User13866 »

I am still not sure how i would go about renewing a passport if i was to ordain.

If i use old money, money i bury before ordination, this money is allowable to own.

However if i use this money to pay for the fees to get a new passport then that passport becomes unallowable and it is an offense for all the time that i keep it.

As i understand it, even if a lay person donates money to a kappiya or to a committee i can't ask this money to be spent on a passport.

Perhaps i could say 'i need to renew the passport' and the kappiya could invite to go together to pay the fees. That may be the only way..
Last edited by User13866 on Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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