I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by zan »

...and also that Buddhism may have been influenced by, and influenced Samkhya philosophy. Does anyone know of good sources for these ideas, or have good discussion points on the matter?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by Ceisiwr »

zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:39 pm ...and also that Buddhism may have been influenced by, and influenced Samkhya philosophy. Does anyone know of good sources for these ideas, or have good discussion points on the matter?
It comes from a later attribution of Alara Kalama with the Samkhya school.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by Mahabrahma »

Real Sankhya philosophy was taught by the ancient Sage Kapila, who was considered as an incarnation of Vishnu by the followers of Sanatana Dharma. Buddha is believed to be as well. It is stated in Sankhya philosophy that the understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth is the outcome of Sankhya philosophy. It's natural that the Dhamma itself is an outcome of such understanding since it's a fully Real philosophy and could be understood as the outcome of the Analytical Study of things which is to be understood as actual Sankhya philosophy.
Last edited by Mahabrahma on Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by zan »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:04 pm
zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:39 pm ...and also that Buddhism may have been influenced by, and influenced Samkhya philosophy. Does anyone know of good sources for these ideas, or have good discussion points on the matter?
It comes from a later attribution of Alara Kalama with the Samkhya school.
Thanks! Do you know where this is substantiated?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by zan »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:09 pm Real Sankhya philosophy was taught by the ancient Sage Kapila, who was considered as an incarnation of Vishnu by the followers of Sanatana Dharma. Buddha is believed to be as well. It is stated in Sankhya philosophy that the understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth is the outcome of Sankhya philosophy. It's natural that the Dhamma itself since it's a fully Real philosophy to be the outcome of what can be understood as Sankhya philosophy.
Thanks, but what does this have to do with Buddhism? I'm looking for the connection between the two.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by Mahabrahma »

zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:11 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:09 pm Real Sankhya philosophy was taught by the ancient Sage Kapila, who was considered as an incarnation of Vishnu by the followers of Sanatana Dharma. Buddha is believed to be as well. It is stated in Sankhya philosophy that the understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth is the outcome of Sankhya philosophy. It's natural that the Dhamma itself since it's a fully Real philosophy to be the outcome of what can be understood as Sankhya philosophy.
Thanks, but what does this have to do with Buddhism? I'm looking for the connection between the two.
I just edited my post. I mentioned that Sankhya is the Analytical Study of things, which was the outcome of Buddhism as well, for the purpose of the Dhamma.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by zan »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:12 pm
zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:11 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:09 pm Real Sankhya philosophy was taught by the ancient Sage Kapila, who was considered as an incarnation of Vishnu by the followers of Sanatana Dharma. Buddha is believed to be as well. It is stated in Sankhya philosophy that the understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth is the outcome of Sankhya philosophy. It's natural that the Dhamma itself since it's a fully Real philosophy to be the outcome of what can be understood as Sankhya philosophy.
Thanks, but what does this have to do with Buddhism? I'm looking for the connection between the two.
I just edited my post. I mentioned that Sankhya is the Analytical Study of things, which was the outcome of Buddhism as well, for the purpose of the Dhamma.
Oh, I see, you're talking about the religious purport that the Buddha and Kapila were both incarnations of Hindu deities. I'm asking for scholarly reports on the matter, such as finding historical documentation that can suggest the two schools are related.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by Ceisiwr »

zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:04 pm
zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:39 pm ...and also that Buddhism may have been influenced by, and influenced Samkhya philosophy. Does anyone know of good sources for these ideas, or have good discussion points on the matter?
It comes from a later attribution of Alara Kalama with the Samkhya school.
Thanks! Do you know where this is substantiated?
It’s not. It’s possible he was part of the Upanishadic tradition, or possibly an annihilationist. That said there are aspects of Samkhya in the Upanishads, Samkhya being basically a kind of Abhidhamma for Brahmins.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by wenjaforever »

Q: What is the main difference of polytheism and Buddhism?

A: In Buddhism, celestial and terrestrial objects, or the elements aren't represented with a god or goddess as its personification. This is because polytheism is just an extension of animism, a natural religion, that worship and admire nature itself.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by zan »

wenjaforever wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:37 pm Q: What is the main difference of polytheism and Buddhism?

A: In Buddhism, celestial and terrestrial objects, or the elements aren't represented with a god or goddess as its personification. This is because polytheism is just an extension of animism, a natural religion, that worship and admire nature itself.
What is this in reference to?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: I have seen vague references to the idea that the Buddha's early teachers may have been Samkhya adherents...

Post by zan »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:22 pm
zan wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:04 pm

It comes from a later attribution of Alara Kalama with the Samkhya school.
Thanks! Do you know where this is substantiated?
It’s not. It’s possible he was part of the Upanishadic tradition, or possibly an annihilationist. That said there are aspects of Samkhya in the Upanishads, Samkhya being basically a kind of Abhidhamma for Brahmins.
Interesting. Seems there must be more to it than pure speculation, no? Surely some scholars have found more similarities than just that Kalama may have been a Samkhya adherent?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Post Reply