I see "Sthavira" mentioned often on this forum but haven't ever being able to track it down in the texts. Do you have a citation?
Sthavira?
Sthavira?
Re: When did handling money become so common?
The Second Council resulted in the first schism in the Sangha, probably caused by a group of rigorist reformists called Sthaviras who split from the majority Mahāsāṃghikas.[1] After unsuccessfully trying to modify the Vinaya, a small group of "elderly members", i.e. sthaviras, broke away from the majority Mahāsāṃghika during the Second Buddhist council, giving rise to the Sthavira sect.[2]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Buddhist_council
The Theravāda school of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia has identified itself exclusively with the Sthaviras, as the Pali word thera is equivalent to the Sanskrit sthavira.[7] This has led early Western historians to assume that the two parties are identical.[7] However, this is not the case, and by the time of Ashoka, the Sthavira sect had split into the Sammitīya Pudgalavada, Sarvāstivāda, and the Vibhajyavāda schools.[7]
The Vibhajyavāda school is believed to have split into other schools as well, such as the Mahīśāsaka school and the ancestor of the Theravada school.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthavira_nik%C4%81ya
Re: When did handling money become so common?
Thanks but I thought you might have a reference from a Theravada text. If I am reading your wikipedia sources correctly the term Sthavira is a sanksrit word , so not pali at all.User13866 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:45 amThe Second Council resulted in the first schism in the Sangha, probably caused by a group of rigorist reformists called Sthaviras who split from the majority Mahāsāṃghikas.[1] After unsuccessfully trying to modify the Vinaya, a small group of "elderly members", i.e. sthaviras, broke away from the majority Mahāsāṃghika during the Second Buddhist council, giving rise to the Sthavira sect.[2]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Buddhist_councilThe Theravāda school of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia has identified itself exclusively with the Sthaviras, as the Pali word thera is equivalent to the Sanskrit sthavira.[7] This has led early Western historians to assume that the two parties are identical.[7] However, this is not the case, and by the time of Ashoka, the Sthavira sect had split into the Sammitīya Pudgalavada, Sarvāstivāda, and the Vibhajyavāda schools.[7]
The Vibhajyavāda school is believed to have split into other schools as well, such as the Mahīśāsaka school and the ancestor of the Theravada school.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthavira_nik%C4%81ya
I guess if we follow the sects who use sanksrit then that is all we need and they are authoratative. But Theravada texts are handed down in pali so it is not so clearcut for Theravada.
Also I remember Dmytro wrote something about that (see here): https://classicaltheravada.org/t/the-my ... iravada/51
So it might even be probelematic for the non-Theravada groups who get their views from Sanskrit sources.There’s a tiny problem with this “Sthaviravada” construct - it’s a figment of imagination unattested in any Sanskrit sources. This word was invented by some buddhologist, who haplessly sanskritized the word “Theravada”, probably under the influence of another myth - that Sanskrit existed earlier then Pali.
Re: When did handling money become so common?
I assume it is probably correct if Dmytro says so. Wikipedia is often biased and i haven't researched this beyond what is there.robertk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:17 amThanks but I thought you might have a reference from a Theravada text. If I am reading your wikipedia sources correctly the term Sthavira is a sanksrit word , so not pali at all.User13866 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:45 amThe Second Council resulted in the first schism in the Sangha, probably caused by a group of rigorist reformists called Sthaviras who split from the majority Mahāsāṃghikas.[1] After unsuccessfully trying to modify the Vinaya, a small group of "elderly members", i.e. sthaviras, broke away from the majority Mahāsāṃghika during the Second Buddhist council, giving rise to the Sthavira sect.[2]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Buddhist_councilThe Theravāda school of Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia has identified itself exclusively with the Sthaviras, as the Pali word thera is equivalent to the Sanskrit sthavira.[7] This has led early Western historians to assume that the two parties are identical.[7] However, this is not the case, and by the time of Ashoka, the Sthavira sect had split into the Sammitīya Pudgalavada, Sarvāstivāda, and the Vibhajyavāda schools.[7]
The Vibhajyavāda school is believed to have split into other schools as well, such as the Mahīśāsaka school and the ancestor of the Theravada school.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthavira_nik%C4%81ya
I guess if we follow the sects who use sanksrit then that is all we need and they are authoratative. But Theravada texts are handed down in pali so it is not so clearcut for Theravada.
Also I remember Dmytro wrote something about that (see here): https://classicaltheravada.org/t/the-my ... iravada/51So it might even be probelematic for the non-Theravada groups who get their views from Sanskrit sources.There’s a tiny problem with this “Sthaviravada” construct - it’s a figment of imagination unattested in any Sanskrit sources. This word was invented by some buddhologist, who haplessly sanskritized the word “Theravada”, probably under the influence of another myth - that Sanskrit existed earlier then Pali.
That being said, as far as i know it's probably more or less what happened at the 2nd council albeit perhaps less formalized in regards to the clasification of parties.