Sutta search

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Sam Vara
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Sutta search

Post by Sam Vara »

I have an annoyingly vague recollection of a sutta in which it is pointed out how something is rooted in/has recourse to/culminates in/is supported by the mind, and then how the mind is rooted in/has recourse to/culminates in/is supported by mindfulness (sati).

We've discussed it here on DW in the past couple of years, I'm sure. I took part in the discussion.

Apologies for the extreme vagueness of the terms, but does anyone have any idea what I am on about? :anjali:
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SDC
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SDC »

“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sutta search

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
Good grief!!

I would have bet a lot of money that nobody would have been able to come up with it, due to the paucity of my recollection.

But that's it!! :twothumbsup:

Spooky. :sage: :bow:
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SDC
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:27 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
Good grief!!

I would have bet a lot of money that nobody would have been able to come up with it, due to the paucity of my recollection.

But that's it!! :twothumbsup:

Spooky. :sage: :bow:
I’m pretty sure you and I touched on it during a study session last year, so I was 99% sure I knew where your mind was. :D
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Sam Vara
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Re: Sutta search

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:35 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:27 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
Good grief!!

I would have bet a lot of money that nobody would have been able to come up with it, due to the paucity of my recollection.

But that's it!! :twothumbsup:

Spooky. :sage: :bow:
I’m pretty sure you and I touched on it during a study session last year, so I was 99% sure I knew where your mind was. :D
Thank goodness for that! We have enough noble attainments around here, without you revealing your iddhis! :D
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SDC
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:53 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:35 pm I’m pretty sure you and I touched on it during a study session last year, so I was 99% sure I knew where your mind was. :D
Thank goodness for that! We have enough noble attainments around here, without you revealing your iddhis! :D
On the contrary, look for me to be emulating Ven. Mahākaccāyana more and more:
Thag 8.1 wrote:…Though you have eyes, be as if blind;
though you have ears, be as if deaf;
though you have wisdom, be as if dumb;
though you have strength, be as if feeble.
And when issues come up
lie as still as a corpse.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
SarathW
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SarathW »

SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
Interesting Sutta.
But how do you apply this to unmindfulness or the mind of Puthujana?

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.42/en/suj ... ript=latin
Last edited by SarathW on Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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SDC
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SDC »

SarathW wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:29 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
Interesting Sutta.
But how do you apply this to unmindfulness or the mind of Puthujana?
I think SN 47.7 sheds some light about the risk of remaining in the domain of others, outside of “one’s own resort” (mindfulness):
…Therefore, bhikkhus, do not stray outside your own resort into the domain of others. Mara will gain access to those who stray outside their own resort into the domain of others; Mara will get a hold on them.

“And what is not a bhikkhu’s own resort but the domain of others? It is the five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. Sounds cognizable by the ear … Odours cognizable by the nose … Tastes cognizable by the tongue … Tactile objects cognizable by the body that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. This is what is not a bhikkhu’s own resort but the domain of others.

“Move in your own resort, bhikkhus, in your own ancestral domain. Mara will not gain access to those who move in their own resort, in their own ancestral domain; Mara will not get a hold on them.

“And what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain? It is the four establishments of mindfulness.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
SarathW
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SarathW »

SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
What is the difference between Vimilti and Nibbana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SDC »

SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:35 am
SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
What is the difference between Vimilti and Nibbana?
It seems vimutti (release/deliverance/emancipation) is an alteration, whereas nibbana is not.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
SarathW
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SarathW »

SDC wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:55 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:35 am
SDC wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:21 pm SN 48.42
What is the difference between Vimilti and Nibbana?
It seems vimutti (release/deliverance/emancipation) is an alteration, whereas nibbana is not.
This is a good point and my next question.
Why it says “Vimuttiyā kho, brāhmaṇa, nibbānaṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti.?
Does it seem like Nibbana is something?

The other point is the tenfold description it says Samma Nana Samma Vimukthi.
It Does not say Samma Nibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SDC »

SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:04 am
SDC wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:55 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:35 am
What is the difference between Vimilti and Nibbana?
It seems vimutti (release/deliverance/emancipation) is an alteration, whereas nibbana is not.
This is a good point and my next question.
Why it says “Vimuttiyā kho, brāhmaṇa, nibbānaṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti.?
Does it seem like Nibbana is something?

The other point is the tenfold description it says Samma Nana Samma Vimukthi.
It Does not say Samma Nibbana.
To your first question: it seems vimutti is the last evidence of settlement. It is the last thing that can culminate. Think about the sequence: senses to mind, mind to mindfulness, mindfulness to release, release to nibbana.

Second question: there is no “right nibbana” because it isn’t something that culminates. The end of culmination is nibbana. (This may be too theoretical to be useful)
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Sutta search

Post by pegembara »

Interesting this. Unnabha was declared a non-returner and not an arahant since the light of 'his consciousness' still lands on the western wall. He is 'free' but not yet 'extinguished' like Ven Khemaka. The 'I am' awareness has not been extinguished.
“But Master Gotama, what does the mind have recourse to?”

“The mind has recourse to mindfulness.”

“But what does mindfulness have recourse to?”

Mindfulness has recourse to freedom.”

“But what does freedom have recourse to?”

“Freedom has recourse to extinguishment.”

“But what does extinguishment have recourse to?”

“This question goes too far, brahmin! You weren’t able to grasp the limit of questioning. For extinguishment is the culmination, destination, and end of the spiritual life.”

And then the brahmin Uṇṇābha approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. He got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on his right, before leaving.

Then, not long after he had left, the Buddha addressed the mendicants: “Suppose there was a bungalow or a hall with a peaked roof, with windows on the eastern side. When the sun rises and a ray of light enters through a window, where would it land?”

“On the western wall
, sir.”

“In the same way, the brahmin Uṇṇābha’s faith in the Realized One is settled, rooted, and planted deep. It’s strong and can’t be shifted by any ascetic or brahmin or god or Māra or Brahmā or by anyone in the world. If he were to pass away at this time, he would be bound by no fetter that might return him to this world.”

“Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?” “On the western wall, lord.”

“And if there is no western wall, where does it land?”

“On the ground, lord.”

“And if there is no ground, where does it land?”

“On the water, lord.”

“And if there is no water, where does it land?”

It does not land, lord.”

“In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food … contact … intellectual intention … consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair.”

—SN XII.64
"Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:24 am Interesting this. Unnabha was declared a non-returner and not an arahant since the light of 'his consciousness' still lands on the western wall. He is 'free' but not yet 'extinguished' like Ven Khemaka. The 'I am' awareness has not been extinguished.

Interesting point.
So what are the sun and the wall represent in this case?
How is this related to the sequence (mind, mindfulness, etc)?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sutta search

Post by SarathW »

Why it is called recourse?
What does it mean to say that five faculties have recourse to the mind?
To be honest, this Sutta does not make any sense to me. :(
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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