New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

[Ceisiwr]

Greetings,

Therefore “Buddhavaccana” was spoken by me, not Sujato in his post, although it’s implied when discussing the great references since that is what they relate to.

Yes, I know it wasn't Sujato trying to degrade the meaning of that expression.

Metta,
Paul.

It was a bit strange to write as you did, given what I said. Also please desist from slandering me.

[mikenz66]

... This example I gave, I think, demonstrably unrelated to what is there in the suttas.

Thank you for being specific. By all means offer criticism, but when criticusm begins with expressions like "some teachers ..." it deserves to be ignored, in my opinion.


Mike

[robertk]

[*]Off topic posts moved to new thread
viewtopic.php?t=44779

[mjaviem]

What is terrible about sensuality is that we don't give a damn about others as long as we get what we want. I see this as very important and it's explained in MN 13. If I had to give an exam about the danger in sensuality I would talk about all the bad things on account of sensuality that people do in order to pass it...

We can see the importance not only in MN 13 but AN 10.61 Avijjāsutta as well.

... The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties... Non-restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of misconduct...

[Lucilius]

From the book, page 129 (pdf format), Jhāna is virtue:

This means that you actually come closer to jhāna by simply keeping the precepts (that is, the eight precepts; the five precepts alone are not sufficient to enable your withdrawal from sensuality, which is the necessary basis for jhāna)

This notion can be disproved quite easily imo,

1. AN 8.22 Ugga Sutta (Thanissaro transl.):

Ugga said, “Venerable sir, I was carousing in the Nāga forest when I saw the Blessed One in the distance for the first time. As soon as I saw the Blessed One, my heart felt confidence, and my liquor-intoxication left me. This is the first amazing & astounding quality to be found in me.
“With a confident heart, I attended to the Blessed One. He gave me a graduated talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & defilement in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then—when the Blessed One knew that I was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—he proclaimed to me the distinctive teaching of the Awakened Ones: stress, origination, cessation, path. Just as a white cloth with stains removed would rightly take dye, in the same way there arose to me, in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then—having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning, having gained fearlessness & become independent of others with regard to the Teacher’s message, right there I went to the Buddha, the Dhamma, & the Saṅgha for refuge and undertook the training rules with celibacy as the fifth.

The "unhindered mind" (vinivaranacittam) here obviously means the first jhāna or higher.
Ugga didn't even undertake the five precepts when he first met the Blessed One, heared his graduated talk, attained concentration (free from hindrances), and broke through to stream-entry.
He was drinking before and he was not celibate, as the Sutta further indicates (he had multiple wives; and him undertaking the precept of celibacy was a change in their relationship-dynamic; so much so that he gave them the choice to leave him if they wanted to because of this).
It was enough for him to not break the precepts as he was listening to the talk to attain jhāna and stream entry.
But the notion that jhāna is only possible through perfecting the 8! precepts, as Ajaan Ñanamoli seems to claim, is not in line with the suttas.

2. DN 17 (Sujato transl.):

Then King Mahāsudassana thought, ‘Of what deed of mine is this the fruit and result, that I am now so mighty and powerful?’
Then King Mahāsudassana thought, ‘It is the fruit and result of three kinds of deeds: giving, self-control, and restraint.’
Then he went to the great foyer, stood at the door, and was inspired to exclaim: ‘Stop here, sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts— no further!’
Then he entered the great foyer and sat on the golden couch. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

Here King Mahasudassana is actively breaking one of the 8 precepts by sitting on the golden, luxurious couch, and yet he still attains the first jhāna.

(Obviously, you need virtue for right concentration, as many suttas say, as it is a vital condition (see AN 5.24 for example), and I'm not saying it isn't.)

Just my two cents.
With mettā, bye.

[Sadat]

That is why I find strange when Monks asks to laypeople to engage in sense-retraint tout-court. They have to be perfectly clear that or it is a lay-hermit style, or you will have to become one if you progress up to a certain point. Remember that if one doesn't have the higher pleasure (so Jhana), the only way to escape Dukkha for the unenlightened is to find a source of Sukha in sensuality so Sense-restraint actually removes also that option. It is fine instead to do that for a period until you discover some things about identity (and btw if you do, it means that you are really f*** suffering your condition, so you will do that nonethless searching for someone who knows a way out), then one have to make the choice based again in his sensibility to Dukkha and other factors like responsability and the happiness of others.

Well said. This is exactly what Ajahn N is missing in his teachings. Not understanding the context can cause a lot of frustration in practice.

[justpractice]

That is why I find strange when Monks asks to laypeople to engage in sense-retraint tout-court. They have to be perfectly clear that or it is a lay-hermit style, or you will have to become one if you progress up to a certain point. Remember that if one doesn't have the higher pleasure (so Jhana), the only way to escape Dukkha for the unenlightened is to find a source of Sukha in sensuality so Sense-restraint actually removes also that option. It is fine instead to do that for a period until you discover some things about identity (and btw if you do, it means that you are really f*** suffering your condition, so you will do that nonethless searching for someone who knows a way out), then one have to make the choice based again in his sensibility to Dukkha and other factors like responsability and the happiness of others.

Well said. This is exactly what Ajahn N is missing in his teachings. Not understanding the context can cause a lot of frustration in practice.

I think it's more accurate to say that Ajahn Nyanamoli, at the expense of agreeability, intentionally chooses not to cater to the sensually-inclined mind of the typical practitioner; he does not provide the basis for an easy and agreeable solution to the fundamental problem of one's situation. Thus, the typical layperson, steeped as he is in justifying his short-comings, usually finds Ajahn Nyanamoli's emphasis on the virtue and restraint quite off-putting. But there are those of us householders out there that needed a rather forceful nudge to start reigning in our sensual indulgences in accordance with the Buddha's teaching, and, at the expense of maintaining a comfortable lay life, to start practicing in a more comprehensive fashion.

[mikenz66]

I think it's more accurate to say that Ajahn Nyanamoli, at the expense of agreeability, intentionally chooses not to cater to the sensually-inclined mind of the typical practitioner; he does not provide the basis for an easy and agreeable solution to the fundamental problem of one's situation. Thus, the typical layperson, steeped as he is in justifying his short-comings, usually finds Ajahn Nyanamoli's emphasis on the virtue and restraint quite off-putting. But there are those of us householders out there that needed a rather forceful nudge to start reigning in our sensual indulgences in accordance with the Buddha's teaching, and, at the expense of maintaining a comfortable lay life, to start practicing in a more comprehensive fashion.

As far as I can tell, no one would disagree with the statement that there are considerable obstacles related to sensuality. However, that doesn't mean that they can't disagree with some of the details of Ven NN's approach. I'm afraid that it's not very useful to merely state that those who disagree must be just sensually-inclined practitioners who don't understand the Buddha's teachings. I recall I encountered this same non-argument on another thread when I tried to explain my objections. By all means argue for Ven NN's point of view, but for it to be a converstation, you would have to engage with possible objections, not simply claim that they are misguided.


Mike

[justpractice]

As far as I can tell, no one would disagree with the statement that there are considerable obstacles related to sensuality. However, that doesn't mean that they can't disagree with some of the details of Ven NN's approach. I'm afraid that it's not very useful to merely state that those who disagree must be just sensually-inclined practitioners who don't understand the Buddha's teachings. I recall I encountered this same non-argument on another thread when I tried to explain my objections. By all means argue for Ven NN's point of view, but for it to be a converstation, you would have to engage with possible objections, not simply claim that they are misguided.

Thanks for the interpersonal tips, but why assume I intended to have "a conversation"? Making a public post does not necessarily imply an intention to converse.

[Ceisiwr]

As far as I can tell, no one would disagree with the statement that there are considerable obstacles related to sensuality. However, that doesn't mean that they can't disagree with some of the details of Ven NN's approach. I'm afraid that it's not very useful to merely state that those who disagree must be just sensually-inclined practitioners who don't understand the Buddha's teachings. I recall I encountered this same non-argument on another thread when I tried to explain my objections. By all means argue for Ven NN's point of view, but for it to be a converstation, you would have to engage with possible objections, not simply claim that they are misguided.

Thanks for the interpersonal tips, but why assume I intended to have "a conversation"? Making a public post does not necessarily imply an intention to converse.

Ah, so you are here to instruct the lowly mortals instead?

[frank k]

...

review of New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... na-by.html

[justpractice]

Ah, so you are here to instruct the lowly mortals instead?

Ha! Only in the art of how not to make posts useful for engaging conversation, it seems.

[Sadat]

From the book, page 129 (pdf format), Jhāna is virtue:

This means that you actually come closer to jhāna by simply keeping the precepts (that is, the eight precepts; the five precepts alone are not sufficient to enable your withdrawal from sensuality, which is the necessary basis for jhāna)

This notion can be disproved quite easily imo,

1. AN 8.22 Ugga Sutta (Thanissaro transl.):

Ugga said, “Venerable sir, I was carousing in the Nāga forest when I saw the Blessed One in the distance for the first time. As soon as I saw the Blessed One, my heart felt confidence, and my liquor-intoxication left me. This is the first amazing & astounding quality to be found in me.
“With a confident heart, I attended to the Blessed One. He gave me a graduated talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he proclaimed the drawbacks of, degradation in, & defilement in sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then—when the Blessed One knew that I was of ready mind, malleable mind, unhindered mind, exultant mind, confident mind—he proclaimed to me the distinctive teaching of the Awakened Ones: stress, origination, cessation, path. Just as a white cloth with stains removed would rightly take dye, in the same way there arose to me, in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. Then—having seen the Dhamma, having reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more questioning, having gained fearlessness & become independent of others with regard to the Teacher’s message, right there I went to the Buddha, the Dhamma, & the Saṅgha for refuge and undertook the training rules with celibacy as the fifth.

The "unhindered mind" (vinivaranacittam) here obviously means the first jhāna or higher.
Ugga didn't even undertake the five precepts when he first met the Blessed One, heared his graduated talk, attained concentration (free from hindrances), and broke through to stream-entry.
He was drinking before and he was not celibate, as the Sutta further indicates (he had multiple wives; and him undertaking the precept of celibacy was a change in their relationship-dynamic; so much so that he gave them the choice to leave him if they wanted to because of this).
It was enough for him to not break the precepts as he was listening to the talk to attain jhāna and stream entry.
But the notion that jhāna is only possible through perfecting the 8! precepts, as Ajaan Ñanamoli seems to claim, is not in line with the suttas.

2. DN 17 (Sujato transl.):

Then King Mahāsudassana thought, ‘Of what deed of mine is this the fruit and result, that I am now so mighty and powerful?’
Then King Mahāsudassana thought, ‘It is the fruit and result of three kinds of deeds: giving, self-control, and restraint.’
Then he went to the great foyer, stood at the door, and was inspired to exclaim: ‘Stop here, sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts— no further!’
Then he entered the great foyer and sat on the golden couch. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

Here King Mahasudassana is actively breaking one of the 8 precepts by sitting on the golden, luxurious couch, and yet he still attains the first jhāna.

(Obviously, you need virtue for right concentration, as many suttas say, as it is a vital condition (see AN 5.24 for example), and I'm not saying it isn't.)

Just my two cents.
With mettā, bye.

Good point. That is another area where Ajahn N teachings are somewhat incomplete. You would also think from reading his teachings that simply following 8 precepts is enough to get jhana, but in practice it is does not seem to be the case.

[Sasha_A]

You would also think from reading his teachings that simply following 8 precepts is enough to get jhana, but in practice it is does not seem to be the case.

Literarily, the very first chapter - 'Jhāna is a lifestyle' - of the book opens with the quote from MN107:

(1) Come, monk. Be virtuous. Live restrained in accordance with the Pāṭimokkha, accomplished in your behavior and sphere of activity.
(2) Come, monk. Be one who is guarded in the doors of your sense faculties...
(3) Come, monk. Be one who moderates his eating...
(4) Come, monk. Be one who is devoted to wakefulness...
(5) Come, monk. Be one who is possessed of recollection and awareness...
(6) Come, monk. Seek out a secluded dwelling...
(7) Abandoning five hindrances with regard to the world, he lives with an awareness devoid of five hindrances...
(8) Having abandoned these five hindrances— imperfections of mind that weaken discernment—then, withdrawn from sensual desire, withdrawn from unskilful qualities, he enters and remains in the first comprehension: joy and pleasure born of withdrawal, with thinking and pondering … the second comprehension, the third comprehension, the fourth comprehension: purity of equanimity and recollection, neither pleasure nor pain...

The very first sentence of the chapter from the Venerable himself, which comes right after the quote, is:

Ajahn Nyanamoli: As you can see, jhāna practice is the culmination of a certain very specific lifestyle of self-taming.

And the only content of the very first chapter of the book is that Ven. Nyanamoli explains the necessity and importance of these eight steps of gradual training to jhana, which actually constitute the aforementioned 'lifestyle', and of which the precepts are only the first step of eight.

[nirodh27]

Just to be clear, no-one is contesting the training of Nyanamoli or saying that it is encoraging laypeople to entertain the training without warning and hiding what the outcomes will be, but, due to the fact that is a training for Monks and for decades in modern times Jhanas were "sold" also as possible for layperson (not Nyanamoli's fault ofc) and some (I think not based on the suttas) versions in fact are, when you restore the correct attitude to jhana, like he did imho, you should do a lot of effort to specify that the training was thought, from the Buddha, for monks and mendicants, and not for laypeople since you will lose every interest in laylife, work, family, friends quite rapidly when you go full-course with the training (in the agamas the jhanas were teached to newly ordained immediately after ordination, so that they will not risk to revert to laylife).

At the time of the Buddha this was not needed, because virtually only monks meditated with renunciation as a goal and so it was crystal clear, in those times it is all muddled with many techniques, views and watered interperations that this message should be a yellow big alert to put on the cover of the Book. You can still take and use and adapt something from the jhanic practice, but one should first understand the path and the goal.