What do you mean by "be a lay people that knows the escape and can choose the engagements wisely and "be saved by sati" when too much Dukkha", I would say of someone who knows the escape by sati that he is at least ariya. Knowing gratification, danger and escape in suttas is equated to be ariya, and knowing one to the necessary degree to be an ariya implies knowing the 3, you can't know escape and be unaware of gratification and danger. Am I wrong?nirodh27 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:42 pm [...]
That is why I find strange when Monks asks to laypeople to engage in sense-retraint tout-court. They have to be perfectly clear that or it is a lay-hermit style, or you will have to become one if you progress up to a certain point. Remember that if one doesn't have the higher pleasure (so Jhana), the only way to escape Dukkha for the unenlightened is to find a source of Sukha in sensuality so Sense-restraint actually removes also that option. It is fine instead to do that for a period until you discover some things about identity (and btw if you do, it means that you are really f*** suffering your condition, so you will do that nonethless searching for someone who knows a way out), then one have to make the choice based again in his sensibility to Dukkha and other factors like responsability and the happiness of others.
Sense Restraint can be useful for a time to arrive at seeing many important things about Dhamma so that you will be a lay people that knows the escape and can choose the engagements wisely and "be saved by sati" when too much Dukkha is coming from an attachment so that you will not fall into heavy forms of Dukkha like despair, lament etc because you always have the knowledge of how to escape (non-acquisition). This is in a sutta in which the Buddha praises the lay-person that knows the escape, but still enjoys sensual pleasures (ofc etical ones).
Total sense-restraint strenghten Dukkha and makes it more visible and you can really see the demon of tanha going outside and inside searching for delight, which again is fine if you want to go full-route, else it is counterproductive and the middle is not an enjoyable place to be. My best insights into the Dhamma happened when sense-restraint was total and Dukkha was made extremely visible due to non-action (actually, this strategy was suggested by Ajahn Sumedho). But then maybe you go back and, if by any reason you don't want to go further, you have to stop sense-restraint tout-court and wisely choose the ethical ways to cope with Dukkha in the best possible, and imperfect, way. Knowing that abandonment and memory of the teachings can save you anytime, like a guardian angel that intervenes when you are taking a wrong direction. Which is already quite an achievement in my opinion.
Or do you mean understanding worldly means and escaping by worldly means, entertaining yourself with something not particularly unwholesome (for example this forum, or a dhamma talk, or reading suttas, ...), or not looking at the problem (ignoring it), or a little more worldly like hanging out with friends to take your mind off whatever ails you.
¿What do you understand/recommend for "escaping", being a lay person?