New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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RobertoAnces
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by RobertoAnces »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:42 pm [...]

That is why I find strange when Monks asks to laypeople to engage in sense-retraint tout-court. They have to be perfectly clear that or it is a lay-hermit style, or you will have to become one if you progress up to a certain point. Remember that if one doesn't have the higher pleasure (so Jhana), the only way to escape Dukkha for the unenlightened is to find a source of Sukha in sensuality so Sense-restraint actually removes also that option. It is fine instead to do that for a period until you discover some things about identity (and btw if you do, it means that you are really f*** suffering your condition, so you will do that nonethless searching for someone who knows a way out), then one have to make the choice based again in his sensibility to Dukkha and other factors like responsability and the happiness of others.

Sense Restraint can be useful for a time to arrive at seeing many important things about Dhamma so that you will be a lay people that knows the escape and can choose the engagements wisely and "be saved by sati" when too much Dukkha is coming from an attachment so that you will not fall into heavy forms of Dukkha like despair, lament etc because you always have the knowledge of how to escape (non-acquisition). This is in a sutta in which the Buddha praises the lay-person that knows the escape, but still enjoys sensual pleasures (ofc etical ones).

Total sense-restraint strenghten Dukkha and makes it more visible and you can really see the demon of tanha going outside and inside searching for delight, which again is fine if you want to go full-route, else it is counterproductive and the middle is not an enjoyable place to be. My best insights into the Dhamma happened when sense-restraint was total and Dukkha was made extremely visible due to non-action (actually, this strategy was suggested by Ajahn Sumedho). But then maybe you go back and, if by any reason you don't want to go further, you have to stop sense-restraint tout-court and wisely choose the ethical ways to cope with Dukkha in the best possible, and imperfect, way. Knowing that abandonment and memory of the teachings can save you anytime, like a guardian angel that intervenes when you are taking a wrong direction. Which is already quite an achievement in my opinion.
What do you mean by "be a lay people that knows the escape and can choose the engagements wisely and "be saved by sati" when too much Dukkha", I would say of someone who knows the escape by sati that he is at least ariya. Knowing gratification, danger and escape in suttas is equated to be ariya, and knowing one to the necessary degree to be an ariya implies knowing the 3, you can't know escape and be unaware of gratification and danger. Am I wrong?

Or do you mean understanding worldly means and escaping by worldly means, entertaining yourself with something not particularly unwholesome (for example this forum, or a dhamma talk, or reading suttas, ...), or not looking at the problem (ignoring it), or a little more worldly like hanging out with friends to take your mind off whatever ails you.

¿What do you understand/recommend for "escaping", being a lay person?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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Sasha_A wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:27 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:53 pmI don’t agree with Bhante here. The bliss of Jhana, absorbed or not, isn’t one based on sensuality. I also disagree that it’s not to be sought out. The suttas say we are to seek it out.
From chapter 9:
Meditation is not about replacing the experience that has arisen. It is about thoroughly knowing it and being unmoved by it while it’s there. But the point will come when, in order to fully understand it, you need to learn how to stay calm, within it—and that is the role of the right samādhi—patiently enduring an experience without acting out of craving to get rid of the unpleasant and replace it with a sensual pleasure.

Such a samādhi practice will result in the pleasure that the Buddha praises, the pleasure that is different from the pleasure of sensuality, that of not being bothered, the pleasure of being withdrawn from danger, the pleasure of internal safety of a mind that has turned away from the entire world. It is a pleasure that you cannot crave more of, because it didn’t come in that external sense of just replacing one experience with another. The pleasure of jhāna is the pleasure of that withdrawal. It is a result of that seclusion from and non-activity of going after sense pleasures or of needing to get rid of discomfort.

Here, bhikkhus, withdrawn from sense desire, withdrawn from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon the first comprehension … the second … the third … the fourth comprehension. This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared. – MN 139
Thank you for that. I've read a bit more of Bhante's book, and most of it I agree with. I guess what I found confusing was his implication that those who practice by focusing on the nostrils, or who use a Kasiṇa disc or a flame, are getting it wrong.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:53 pm The thing is . . . Does anyone / teachers or teaching materials (besides from sutta's) we know of now days that explains / teaches the danger of sensuality more in depth than besides: unsatisfactory, impermeant, inconsistent and maybe some other words that I might have not mentioned?

If there is, please do mention.
True. I would also love to find somebody.
Sasha_A wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:36 am ...
For example, from...
...
That's an example of what I'm saying. He teaches that sensual pleasures are poison and dangerous. This is ok but he doesn't mention what is clearly stated in MN 13 which I see as key about where the danger lies. Instead, bhante quotes SN 12.66. This sutta is about regarding what is pleasant and agreeable as permanent, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure. Teaching the error of this is fine and good but it's not only and specifically about sensual pleasures. And this is not the only danger about sensual pleasures. It seems impermanence is the only danger he sees.
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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Greetings,
mjaviem wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:25 am It seems impermanence is the only danger he sees.
If you read it more you'll see that it's not. He highlights the danger and discomfort of tanha, and that sensuality is an avoidance strategy that does nothing to reduce tanha.

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Paul.
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:38 am If you read it more you'll see that it's not. He highlights the danger and discomfort of tanha, and that sensuality is an avoidance strategy that does nothing to reduce tanha.
...
What is terrible about sensuality is that we don't give a damn about others as long as we get what we want. I see this as very important and it's explained in MN 13. If I had to give an exam about the danger in sensuality I would talk about all the bad things on account of sensuality that people do in order to pass it. But bhante talks about impermanence of sensuality and that sensuality which seems to be the solution is not.
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:39 pmI guess what I found confusing was his implication that those who practice by focusing on the nostrils, or who use a Kasiṇa disc or a flame, are getting it wrong.
Here in the latest talk, he again explains what exactly is wrong with such techniques and why:
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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nirodh27
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by nirodh27 »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:53 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:38 am If you read it more you'll see that it's not. He highlights the danger and discomfort of tanha, and that sensuality is an avoidance strategy that does nothing to reduce tanha.
...
What is terrible about sensuality is that we don't give a damn about others as long as we get what we want. I see this as very important and it's explained in MN 13. If I had to give an exam about the danger in sensuality I would talk about all the bad things on account of sensuality that people do in order to pass it. But bhante talks about impermanence of sensuality and that sensuality which seems to be the solution is not.
Actually, only some forms of sensuality and engaging with the world are like that. As you can read in my next response, the Buddha actually praises the pleasure seeker that is ethical and wise.

Even if everyone will behave in ethical manner seeking ethical pleasures, still the problem of Dukkha of beings will be there nonethless. Because of inconstancy.

The Dukkha the Buddha is talking about is the one of the first noble truth that in brief is the Dukkha of clinging, in every form even if ofc many forms will create hells on earth, other forms will not btw.

As explained Beautifully in the suttanipata
1. If when a man is lusting for a sensual pleasure
he succeeds in [getting] it,
all joyful indeed he becomes
having got what he wanted.
2. If while a person is lusting
and full of desire
those sensual pleasures fall away from him
he gets afflicted as if pierced by a barb.
3. Whoever avoids sensual pleasures
as if the head of a snake with his foot,
the sticky nature of the world
he mindfully passes over.
4. Fields and land, or gold,
cows and horses, slaves and servants,
women and relations, various sensual pleasures,
if for these a man has greed,
5. they, though being powerless, overpower him.
His surroundings crush him.
Then misery enters into him
like water into a broken boat.
6. Therefore a person always mindful
should avoid sensual pleasures.
Having abandoned them he would cross the flood
like one who has gone to the far shore after bailing out the boat
Sensuality can be etic and produce results that are good, sensuality can be a person that goes out with friends having good time and make everyone happy. Sensuality is the presence of a person you love and care about. But if you clung to and want it to stay the same (note: which is almost automatic in relationships, except for only-compassionate ones), inconstancy will be the danger of change that will make you lament, despair, suffer due to loss and worry/being anxious due to potential loss and always stressed (being in debt is the metaphor of the Buddha) since you have to work against inconstancy to maintain what you cherish as you like it to be (a work that can only pospone unwelcomed change).
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by Inedible »

Speaking for myself, I liked the book. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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Sasha_A wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:13 am Here in the latest talk, he again explains what exactly is wrong with such techniques and why:
What an excellent talk! Thanks for sharing.

Impermanence that matters is about what is dear to you and looking at the nostrils and searching to see microscopic Impermanence are not directly related to uproot them. The real deal is at the level of beings and his relationships of desire and aversion (one that hates the world have the same problem) towards what is taken.

Anxiety, Agitation, Dukkha is about what is dear to you (or you are averse of). The carrier of the Burden carries what is dear (including all the forms of "I am that or I will be/not be" he conceived) so the aggregates which he clings to (or doesn't want).

Nyanamoli is one of the best things that happened in western Dhamma (imho).
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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nirodh27 wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:24 amNyanamoli is one of the best things that happened in western Dhamma (imho).
The one who started clearing the path was ven. Nanavira:
Notes on Dhamma has been variously described as 'arrogant, scathing, and condescending', as 'a fantastic system', and as 'the best and most important book on Buddhism ever written by a Westerner'. The Ven. Ñānavīra Thera himself remarked of the book that 'it is vain to hope that it is going to win general approval... but I do allow myself to hope that a few individuals... will have private transformations of their way of thinking as a result of reading [the Notes]'.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

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RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:02 am
What do you mean by "be a lay people that knows the escape and can choose the engagements wisely and "be saved by sati" when too much Dukkha", I would say of someone who knows the escape by sati that he is at least ariya. Knowing gratification, danger and escape in suttas is equated to be ariya, and knowing one to the necessary degree to be an ariya implies knowing the 3, you can't know escape and be unaware of gratification and danger. Am I wrong?

Or do you mean understanding worldly means and escaping by worldly means, entertaining yourself with something not particularly unwholesome (for example this forum, or a dhamma talk, or reading suttas, ...), or not looking at the problem (ignoring it), or a little more worldly like hanging out with friends to take your mind off whatever ails you.

¿What do you understand/recommend for "escaping", being a lay person?

:namaste:
Hi RobertoAnces,

(written very fast so try to take the main message!)

This is the passage that can explain my approach:
Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. And they enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. They may be praised on four grounds. They seek for wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the third ground for praise. They enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. This is the fourth ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these four grounds.

These are the ten pleasure seekers found in the world. The pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit, and who uses that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape is the foremost, best, chief, highest, and finest of the ten. From a cow comes milk, from milk comes curds, from curds come butter, from butter comes ghee, and from ghee comes cream of ghee. And the cream of ghee is said to be the best of these.

In the same way, the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit, and who uses that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape is the foremost, best, chief, highest, and finest of the ten
The Escape is always the same: non-acquisition, renunciation and ofc it is possible also for the wordlings (for example - there's a sutta about this - those worldings that renounce the body when they are old, the difference is that Dhamma sees also the problem with the attachments to the mind). Of course, knowing the escape is impossible without carefully know the allure (his duration, his effect on the mind, etc) and the drawbacks of potential loss or potential gaining (if it is something unwelcomed), that are due to inconstancy of things when something dear is involved.

You are totally correct that to see the escape you must know the drawbacks as well (inconstancy that causes Dukkha from Anxiety to Despair being their chief). The difference between the layperson and the monk (or the lay-hermit, that is a monk-like figure), imho, is the extent from which he is able to practice the renunciation. A layperson can go as far as to understand and non-acquire many things of the identity-view that creates many forms of strong Dukkha and can try to manage wisely the "signed contracts with Dukkha" that he has choosen to mantain (like a spouse, or a work that requires effort and craving for results) by chosing ethical and wholesome attachments and renounce all the things that are clearly leading to the hell's realms like drugs, friends that are unethical, etc. The Monk instead can (and should) go full-route to not sign a single-contract and use renounciation to sustain himself: so abandon attachment to family, attachment to society and his destiny, seeing everything as a potential barb and tumor if clung to.

While the layperson involved with the Dhamma can non-acquire many "I am that" and so live more happily due to non-arising of many forms of anxiety, he is not free to renounce every "I am" because he will probably have something like "I am a father", "I am a friend of x", etc from which responsability, fear and unwelcomed things will enter. He is still engaged with the world and, by not having jhana, he will still be a pleasure seeker albeit a wise one and he will be crystal clear to him why he suffers. His knowledge of the Dhamma btw will reassure him that the Escape is possible everytime and when Dukkha is strong it will intervene remembering that the truth of maximum happiness is "nothing is worth adhering to".

The monk, instead, can really uproot "I am", using it only to refer to himself for communication reason, which is a far far greater liberation.
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sasha_A wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:13 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:39 pmI guess what I found confusing was his implication that those who practice by focusing on the nostrils, or who use a Kasiṇa disc or a flame, are getting it wrong.
Here in the latest talk, he again explains what exactly is wrong with such techniques and why:
Thanks for sharing. I did watch the video but I didn’t really see anything which explained what’s wrong with such meditations. He did say you have to think why you are doing it, which I agree with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:24 am
Sasha_A wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:13 am Here in the latest talk, he again explains what exactly is wrong with such techniques and why:
What an excellent talk! Thanks for sharing.

Impermanence that matters is about what is dear to you and looking at the nostrils and searching to see microscopic Impermanence are not directly related to uproot them. The real deal is at the level of beings and his relationships of desire and aversion (one that hates the world have the same problem) towards what is taken.

Anxiety, Agitation, Dukkha is about what is dear to you (or you are averse of). The carrier of the Burden carries what is dear (including all the forms of "I am that or I will be/not be" he conceived) so the aggregates which he clings to (or doesn't want).

Nyanamoli is one of the best things that happened in western Dhamma (imho).
What is “microscopic impermanence”?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr in last two posts is summarizing the kind of issues I find when listening to the venerable's talks
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Re: New book: The Only Way to Jhāna by Ajahn Nyanamoli

Post by mjaviem »

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:23 am ... sensuality can be a person that goes out with friends having good time and make everyone happy. Sensuality is the presence of a person you love and care about...
What you have there is a mix of pleasures from different realms: You have sensual pleasures where everyone enjoys food, drinks, laughter, sensual insinuations, etc. form-ish pleasures like those arose from a beautiful gathering place, and formless-ish pleasures from the pleasant experience they are getting there.

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:23 am Actually, only some forms of sensuality and engaging with the world are like that...
That is only one of the dangers, MN 13 explains other dangers like the hassle to obtain those pleasures, and also and as you mentioned, the danger of losing those pleasures. And I believe violence as an extreme is not the only danger, you can simply behave in adhammic ways in order to get sensual pleasures. This I understand it as a key danger from sensuality.
nirodh27 wrote: Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:23 am ...
Even if everyone will behave in ethical manner seeking ethical pleasures, still the problem of Dukkha of beings will be there nonethless. Because of inconstancy.
...
Yes thats a danger in all realms as you can read from MN 13: Sensual pleasures can end, delight in beauty can end, delight in the experience can end. But I was complaining about a monk teaching there's danger in sensuality without ever mentioning it's very dangerous due to many times leading people to behave wrongly.
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