Transgender Ordination

[faye]

Is there a basis for the ordination of a transgender person into the Sangha of Bhikkhus or Bhikkunis? This question is asked with the understanding that said transgender person has undergone gender confirmation surgery, and appears/acts in accordance with the gender they transitioned to. Also, this person is not a eunuch, nor are they steeped in all the implications of what being a eunuch entails. Removal of genitalia does not alone, a eunuch make. (Unless it does? There are those who may debate this point.) This is a person who claims to be definitively the opposite gender to which they were assigned at birth.

Supposing there is no basis in the early teachings, are there extant monasteries who will ordain transgender individuals as described above anyway?

[User13866]

In general cutting off the man part is considered a grave offense

Now at that time a certain monk, tormented by dissatisfaction, cut off his own male organ. They told this matter to the Lord. He said: “This foolish man, monks, cut off one thing when another should have been cut off. Monks, one should not cut off one’s own male organ. Whoever should cut it off, there is a grave offence.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd15? ... ight=false

As to "changing gender" there is this

Now at that time the features of a woman appeared on a certain monk. They told the Blessed One about this matter. [He said,] “Monks, I allow the same teacher, the same ordination, the same rainy seasons together with the nuns. I allow reinstatement among the nuns for those offenses that nuns share in common with monks. According to those offenses of monks that are not shared in common with nuns, there is no offense.

Now at that time, the features of a man appeared on a certain nun. They told the Blessed One about this matter. [He said,] “Monks, I allow the same teacher, the same ordination, the same rainy seasons in relation to the monks. I allow reinstatement among the monks for those offenses that monks share in common with the nuns. According to those offences of nuns that not shared in common with monks, there is no offense” (Vin III.35)

As to what is a pandaka, i am not convinced that it doesn't mean "gay" because both women & men can be pandaka as well as non-humans and it looks like pandakas can get together as there is a rule prohibiting the matchmaking of pandaka. Furthermore if one looks at the origin story it is not clear to me how anything other than a restriction of gay ordination can prevent that particular behavioral circumstance. However what i think doesn't matter.

As to whether someone will ordain one with female features and manpart cut off. It wouldn't surprise me if one can find a community that will give even full acceptence either as a bhikkhu or as a bhikkhuni.

[EloniS]

As to what is a pandaka, i am not convinced that it doesn't mean "gay"...

What evidence is there for this conviction?

[User13866]

When seeking full acceptance as a bhikkhuni they will ask many questions

‘You are not without [sexual] organs, are you (1)? You are not with incomplete [sexual] organs, are you (2)? You are not without [regular] menstruation, are you (3)? You are not with continuous menstruation, are you (4)? You are not one who continuously has to use a sanitary cloth, are you (5)? You are not incontinent, are you (6)? You are without uterine prolapse, are you (7)? You are not a fe-male paṇḍaka, are you (8)? You are not androgynous, are you (9)? You are not one whose [urethra and anus] are conjoined, are you (10)? You are not a hermaphrodite, are you (11)? Do you have a disease such as leprosy (12), boils (13), eczema (14), tuberculosis (15), or epilepsy (16)? Are you a human being (17)? Are you a woman (18)? Are you a free woman (19)? Are you without debts (20)? You are not in royal service, are you (21)? Do you have the permission of your parents and your husband (22)? Are you fully twenty years old (23)? Are your robes and bowl complete (24)? What is your name? What is the name of your pre-ceptor (pavattinī)?’”
[CV X 17.2]

I am not sure which of the impediments are not absolute disqualifications from full acceptance.

Finding a group that is willing to give full acceptance might be more difficult than i initially thought.

[dharmacorps]

There are a few issues here. For one, the reality is the Bhikkhuni order died out about 1000 years ago, and the "restoration" of the order is not accepted universally, and there is great debate and difference of opinion about its legitimacy. I am not sure what the answer is myself, but that statement at least seems true about its status. So completely aside from the transgender issue, this is probably the larger matter.
For ordination into the Bhikkhu order, very long and complication story short, if one has testicles, ordination seems entirely possible.
Without them, it isn't clear if it is considered a legitimate ordination.
Not everybody can be ordained in this life. Many of us here can't due to disabilities, circumstances, conditions like that. Its OK.

[TRobinson465]

Ive always figured it wasnt allowed. A transgender person would probably count as a forbidden pandaka as its pretty much implied to mean someone of abnormal gender and is explained so in the commentary. You have to be a male or a female. Nothing in between. Nowadays you have to be male unless you ordain in the sri lankan lineage where they accept the revival of the bhikkhuni order or in western ones. Granted they didnt have sex reassignment surgery back then so itd be easier to pass off as your preferred gender nowadays but it still makes sense trans ppl would be in the forbidden category.

[User13866]

It is noteworthy that cutting off one's manparts doesn't make one subject to expulsion.

If pandaka meant eunuch then the cutting off of one's male parts should make one a pandaka and subject to expulsion.

This actually still happens (don't click the link if you want to avoid seeing gory pictures)

“I’m still feeling dizzy. There’s no reason behind it, it just happened.”

“I don’t have depression, I don’t use drugs and I don’t have problems at home. My hands just moved and started with the cutting.”


https://www.vanguardngr.com/2023/01/bud ... -thailand/

[asahi]

Another thing is about concept of equality . But thats just cherry-picking on gender equality in ordination and they dont bother about other like handicapped ordination . Not so much of equality though . I am afraid what they called Genderless ordination is something beyond what the Buddha Vinaya has set down .

[TRobinson465]

Another thing is about concept of equality . But thats just cherry-picking on gender equality in ordination and they dont bother about other like handicapped ordination . Not so much of equality though . I am afraid what they called Genderless ordination is something beyond what the Buddha Vinaya has set down .

The whole equality thing is a relatively new thing too. This wasn't a common mindset prior to the 1960s in most of the world. The Buddha didn't base his requirements just using the rationale, because sexism/racism/ableism etc. The Buddha explains the world is not fair and there are reasons for each prohibition that made sense when the Buddha laid them out. And the dhamma is universal and helpful for all beings, but you don't have to be a monk to benefit from the teachings. If your in a prohibited category, the world isn't fair. But you can still benefit from buddhism as a layperson (as almost everyone on this thread is/does) and there's always next life for trying out monkhood.

[EloniS]

Is there a basis for the ordination of a transgender person into the Sangha of Bhikkhus or Bhikkunis? This question is asked with the understanding that said transgender person has undergone gender confirmation surgery, and appears/acts in accordance with the gender they transitioned to.... Supposing there is no basis in the early teachings, are there extant monasteries who will ordain transgender individuals as described above anyway?

Hello Faye. What is the point or purpose of your post? Is there a transgender person or transgender people you know of who are desperate to ordain? Why do they need to ordain? What is their goal/s? Did their gender confirmation result in their disillusionment with their confirmed gender?

Respectfully, I find it unusual that a person would be so focused on sexual identity, to the point of having gender reassignment surgery, who then would want to live a life of celibacy that has the goal of abandoning all identity.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Respectfully, I find it unusual that a person would be so focused on sexual identity, to the point of having gender reassignment surgery, who then would want to live a life of celibacy that has the goal of abandoning all identity.

Well said... and if such a person were to exist, it would be amazing to hear what caused their transition in view.

Metta,
Paul.

[Mahabrahma]

I think Buddhism is the best haven for someone like that, on the other hand, you have to think.

[faye]

Is there a basis for the ordination of a transgender person into the Sangha of Bhikkhus or Bhikkunis? This question is asked with the understanding that said transgender person has undergone gender confirmation surgery, and appears/acts in accordance with the gender they transitioned to.... Supposing there is no basis in the early teachings, are there extant monasteries who will ordain transgender individuals as described above anyway?

Hello Faye. What is the point or purpose of your post? Is there a transgender person or transgender people you know of who are desperate to ordain? Why do they need to ordain? What is their goal/s? Did their gender confirmation result in their disillusionment with their confirmed gender?

Respectfully, I find it unusual that a person would be so focused on sexual identity, to the point of having gender reassignment surgery, who then would want to live a life of celibacy that has the goal of abandoning all identity.

I want to ordain, and I'm a trans woman. Being trans isn't, however, a matter of fad or out-of-nowhere identity crisis. We don't focus on our gender identity, but rather it demands our focus. Gender dysphoria is a well documented mental condition, with proven treatment. I keep having to explain this, and I hate to be the annoying one who says 'do your research', but here we are.

Being trans is not a whim, but rather something that you experience whether or not you'd like to. In the same way all of us experience pervasive suffering just through existing in samsara, trans people experience a kind of pervasive gender dysphoria. Everything about one's body and one's performance of gender feels wrong and causes significant suffering, to the point of trans people having a distinctly high suicide rate. This is not a condition that is suppressed, and suppression only serves to prolong the mental distress.

I've posted over on suttacentral and have found the help I was looking for, so I probably won't be checking back here much again. In the meantime, I'd encourage everyone to do some research on the lives and experiences of trans people going through what they go through, for the sake of more skillfully interacting with them in the future. Consider right speech, saying things at the right time, knowing they are true and helpful and agreeable. With affection.

Whether or not I ordain, I'm intent on practicing to fruition. Ordination would simply be a big bonus for me.

[asahi]

I want to ordain, and I'm a trans woman.
Consider right speech, saying things at the right time, knowing they are true and helpful and agreeable. With affection.

To aspire to joint the monastic is something praiseworthy . Knowing something are true surely deserving effort and attention . But being agreeable would need many conditions to fulfill which might go agaisnt our wishes in many instances , unfortunately . I dont have a solution for you since this would involves some sort of technicality but certainly if you are on the path that is a good start already .

[dharmacorps]

I must have missed where people called transgender a "fad", "whim" etc in this post.

I suppose in the end, the old addage, one has to have a healthy sense of self before they can let go of a sense of self, applies.