Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Alex123
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Alex123 »

asahi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:03 am
Alex123 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:40 am
I was recently briefly looking over Agamas and got a bit disappointed. There, some stories (at least about other bhikkhus) are different from those in Pali suttas...
You disappointed with Agamas over Pali suttas ?
I was kinda upset about the minor (mostly stories) differences between them. Good thing that the overall Teaching is the same.
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by asahi »

Alex123 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:02 am
asahi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:03 am
Alex123 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:40 am
I was recently briefly looking over Agamas and got a bit disappointed. There, some stories (at least about other bhikkhus) are different from those in Pali suttas...
You disappointed with Agamas over Pali suttas ?
I was kinda upset about the minor (mostly stories) differences between them. Good thing that the overall Teaching is the same.
Here is 1 pali sutta that are problematic .
Rāhula was asking Venerable Sāriputta about mindfulness of breathing but the sutta presented erroneously describing practicing meditation of the 5 type of elements .

https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato

“Sir, how is mindfulness of breathing developed and cultivated to be very fruitful and beneficial?”

Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element .
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Pulsar
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Pulsar »

Asahi wrote
Rāhula was asking Venerable Sāriputta about mindfulness of breathing but the sutta presented erroneously describing practicing meditation of the 5 type of elements .
Thanks Asahi, for pointing this out.
This is not the only time in the translations where meditations that Buddha never taught (but were practiced by Hindu teachers, i.e. Upanisad, Jain, Ajivaka etc, you name it) were sandwiched in between
Buddha's original teachings.
This is also the reason why many buddhists believe that Buddha had nothing new to say regarding meditation. They think he copied Arupas from Alara Kalama and company. Was there a need for him to copy something that did not lead to end of suffering?
Imagine the many times people attribute cemetery meditation, and meditation on corpses to Buddha. How can you find fault with them? It is all in the Pali canon.
Pali canon has two layers of sutta, many scholars have admitted.
It is true that Brahma Viharas were prevalent before the Buddha.
But if you read the Pali canon carefully, it is also presented as method that helps consolidate the stage after Satipatthana.
Pali canon presents MN 10, and DN 22 as Ekayana. Are they?
If anyone has followed SN 47.42 he or she would realize what Satipatthana was originally meant to accomplish.
  • It was meant to get rid of the first active step of Paticca samuppada by a meditator.
A meditator cannot get rid of his past ignorance, but he can get rid of currently arising ignorance.
Can you get rid of currently arising ignorance by spending time in a cemetery, by staring at a corpse, by staring at a gold disc, by meditating on Mahabhuta?
It can only be prevented by blocking the identification involved in the currently arising thought.
If one is parked by a corpse, or staring at a kasina, how does that block entry of sensual data?
Until one learns to block entries at the 6 senses (eye included), one is always residing in the sensory world.
One parked in Samsara, veritably, cannot be released from Samsara.
With love :candle:
Until all underlying tendency is wiped out by diligence, past karma can impact us.
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:16 pm ..
Are you alright?

Pulsar, there is zero evidence what you saying, hence toxic quibble.
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Pulsar »

auto wrote
Are you alright?
What are you referring to? Last I checked my temperature was in the normal range, my physician revealed at my last physical, that he could not detect anything abnormal. When did you appoint yourself the judge of others that can determine the alrightness of people?
Auto wrote:
Pulsar, there is zero evidence what you saying, hence toxic quibble.
Let us say you are alright, give you the benefit of the doubt.
If staring at corpses, and gold discs, or engaging in Arupa samapatthis or engaging in meditation on Primary elements brought an end to suffering,
  • how did Buddha rise to the peak of human achievement? by finding a way out of the mess of samsara?
Why was Buddha considered unique, among all teachers of his day? Or was he not? What is the difference between Primary elements (earth, fire, air, water) and the elements that Buddha's fundamental teaching is about? i.e. Dependent Origination
I am not referring to the elements of the Periodic Table.
I am referring to eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, smell consciousness, touch consciousness, and mind consciousness that are also labelled as ELEMENTS in the translations of the Pali canon?
Good Luck with your spiritual journey to escape from Samsara. Or if your intention is to join with Brahma, of course Arupa samapatthis will take you there. If not please explain how staring at a corpse will make you approach enlightenment/Awakening/Arahantship.
With love :candle:
PS May you always remain alright! May your heart always be free of sorrow, anger and delusion.
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by robertk »

asahi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:08 pm
Alex123 wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:02 am
asahi wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:03 am

You disappointed with Agamas over Pali suttas ?
I was kinda upset about the minor (mostly stories) differences between them. Good thing that the overall Teaching is the same.
Here is 1 pali sutta that are problematic .
Rāhula was asking Venerable Sāriputta about mindfulness of breathing but the sutta presented erroneously describing practicing meditation of the 5 type of elements .

https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato

“Sir, how is mindfulness of breathing developed and cultivated to be very fruitful and beneficial?”

Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element .
From the Atthakattha (Commentary). Translation Bodhi note
MA: The Buddha here explains the meditation on the
four great elements rather than mindfulness of breathing
in order to dispel Rahula's attachment to the body,
which
had not yet been removed by the brief instruction on the
egolessness of material form. See n.329 for explanation of
terms requiring comment.
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Alex123
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:53 am From the Atthakattha (Commentary). Translation Bodhi note
MA: The Buddha here explains the meditation on the four great elements rather than mindfulness of breathing in order to dispel Rahula's attachment to the body, which had not yet been removed by the brief instruction on the egolessness of material form. See n.329 for explanation of terms requiring comment.
Thank you for the quote.
Yes, that is what I thought the justification was to teach Rahula the 4 elements before anapanasati. Before mindfulness with breathing can be successfully done, it can be a good idea to do preliminary practices to counter gross defilements.
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Alex123
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Alex123 »

In Madhyama Agama there is a sutta on Udakka Ramaputta which answers my question.
In assemblies Uddaka Rāmaputta often spoke like this, “In this lifetime I have contemplated this and realized this. Not knowing the root of the tumor, I have subsequently come to know fully the root of the tumor.”
Uddaka Rāmaputta was not omniscient yet he claimed to be omniscient; he had not actually realized but claimed to have realized. Uddaka Rāmaputta had this view and taught like this, “Existence is an illness, a tumor, a thorn. Those who advocate nonperception are foolish.

Those who have realized [know]: this is tranquil, this is sublime, namely attaining the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception.”

He delighted in his own identity and clung to his own identity. Attached to his own identity, he practiced attaining the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception. On the breaking up of the body at death, he was
reborn among the devas of neither-perception-nor-nonperception. When his life span there is exhausted he will return to this world and be reborn as a lowly person. - MA114
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:12 am ..
The manners of yours, when you talk about something you don't get.

Years back i still waiting you point out where the arupa jhanas are talked about in upanishads. And week ago you promised to explain your post i requested. You don't provide anything, i presume you have nothing to say, just trying to upset and go from there, hoping that you get lucky when people won't ask source?
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by asahi »

robertk wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:53 am
From the Atthakattha (Commentary). Translation Bodhi note
MA: The Buddha here explains the meditation on the
four great elements rather than mindfulness of breathing
in order to dispel Rahula's attachment to the body,
which
had not yet been removed by the brief instruction on the
egolessness of material form. See n.329 for explanation of
terms requiring comment.
You might want to re-read again . Commentary isnt always right . It is not about body ! But 5 aggregates . Anyway , if anyone couldnt figure it out . Thats a pity . The theme of the sutta is anapanasati . Pls refers to parallel . Ea17.1
The english translation was by J. Pierquet




“Only form, Blessed One? Only form, Holy One?”


“Form, Rāhula, as well as feeling and perception and choices and consciousness.”



Ps . Alex123 got it wrong above , 5 elements instead of 4 elements .

https://suttacentral.net/ea17.1/lzh/taisho

世尊告曰:「於是,羅雲!若有比丘 樂於閑靜無人之處,便正身正意,結跏趺 坐,無他異念,繫意鼻頭,出息長知息長,入 息長亦知息長;出息短亦知息短,入息短亦 知息短;出息冷亦知息冷,入息冷亦知息 冷;出息暖亦知息暖,入息暖亦知息暖。盡 觀身體入息、出息,皆悉知之。有時有息亦 復知有,又時無息亦復知無。若息從心出 亦復知從心出。若息從心入亦復知從心 入。如是,羅雲,能修行安般者,則無愁憂 惱亂之想,獲大果報,得甘露味。」


—J. Pierquet
Ekottarikāgama 17.1
Mindfulness of Breathing
Thus have I heard. At one time the Buddha was in Śrāvastī, at the Jeta Grove, at Anāthapiṇḍada’s park. At that time, the Bhagavān put on his robe, picked up his bowl, and departed with Rāhula to enter the city walls of Śrāvastī. Then the Bhagavān turned to his right and said to Rāhula, “You should now contemplate the impermanence of form.” Facing him, Rāhula replied, “Thusly, Bhagavān, form is impermanent.” The Bhagavān told Rāhula, “Sensation, conception, synthesis, and discrimination are all impermanent.” Facing him, Rāhula replied, “Thusly, Bhagavān, sensation, conception, synthesis, and discrimination are all impermanent.”

At this time, Venerable Rāhula thought, “For what reasons, today, on the path to the city walls, has the Bhagavān faced me and admonished me in this manner? I will return now, as I ought not enter the city walls of Śrāvastī to beg for food.” Then Venerable Rāhula promptly returned along the road to the Jeta Grove Monastery. Arriving there with his robe and bowl, he stopped below a tree. Correcting his body and correcting his intention, he sat cross-legged, focusing his energy single-mindedly. He was mindful of the impermanence of form, and mindful of the impermanence of sensation, conception, synthesis, and discrimination.

At this time, the Bhagavān had finished begging for food within the city walls of Śrāvastī. After eating, he returned to the Jeta Grove Monastery and walked about, eventually arriving at the place where Rāhula was. There he addressed Rāhula, saying, “You should cultivate the method of Ānāpānasmṛti. Cultivating this method, every notion of worry and sorrow that you have will come to an end. You are still cultivating incorrectly with impurity, and your desires have not yet ended. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of kindness, and all anger will come to an end. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of compassion, and all cruelty will come to an end. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of contentment, and all jealousy will come to an end. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of equality, and all pride will come to an end.”
Last edited by asahi on Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Pulsar
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Pulsar »

robertk wrote
From the Atthakattha (Commentary). Translation Bodhi note
MA: The Buddha here explains the meditation on the
four great elements rather than mindfulness of breathing
in order to dispel Rahula's attachment to the body, which
had not yet been removed by the brief instruction on the
egolessness of material form. See n.329 for explanation of
terms requiring comment.
Dear robertk: Bodhi is merely translating the commentary. He is not defending the inclusion in the Pali canon of these meditations.
In Buddha's original teaching to Rahula, (as pointed out by Asahi in the agama parallel) Buddha did not think that Rahula needed to calm him mind by focussing on a meditation on Mahabhuta, before Rahula began breath meditation.
Why did the Pali abhidhammikas (who rewrote the sutta to fit their mentality) think that Rahula needed meditation on earth, air, water, and fire before he embarked on breath meditation. Pulsar not being Buddha's son (not that advanced, neither having spent time training under Sariputta) can easily slip into breath meditation, unless a man was approaching Pulsar with a gun.

Is breath meditation hard for someone with a settled mind?
Rahula apparently did not have a wily mind like a Devadatta. Not even did he have the attitude of the teachers of the time that opposed Buddha?

Do you think Rahula had a lowly mind full of ego to begin with? Did those who translate, the original sutta decide that Rahula had a mind full of ego, and feed that into Buddha's mouth?
Something that was not in his mouth when he spoke the agama sutta?
Upon meeting Sariputta, did Buddha's disciple teach him a meditation on four great elements on first encounter, or directly dive into a teaching of Dependent Origination?
With love :candle:
PS When I have time I will bring you suttas, where Pali compilers changed the original intention found in their agama parallels. Perhaps you can locate instances in Kathavattu where these changes were defended, and we can openly discuss on the forum whether those changes were fair to the Buddha.
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Pulsar »

Asahi wrote
At this time, the Bhagavān had finished begging for food within the city walls of Śrāvastī. After eating, he returned to the Jeta Grove Monastery and walked about, eventually arriving at the place where Rāhula was. There he addressed Rāhula, saying, “You should cultivate the method of Ānāpānasmṛti. Cultivating this method, every notion of worry and sorrow that you have will come to an end. You are still cultivating incorrectly with impurity, and your desires have not yet ended. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of kindness, and all anger will come to an end. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of compassion, and all cruelty will come to an end. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of contentment, and all jealousy will come to an end. Rāhula, you should now cultivate a mind of equality, and all pride will come to an end.”
Thanks for clarifying the issue. In the original sutta Buddha was advising Rahula to get rid of the remains of impurity in his mind via Anapanasati, by engaging in the likes of Brahmavihara.
I appreciate your interest in bringing us Agama parallels.
It makes sense to engage in brahma vihara via breath meditation before exploring the aggregates, if one has even a slightly impure mind. Thereafter, explore a reason for craving...
How does craving of the eye consciousness begin?
In fact the first sutta in the Anapanasati Samyutta of the Agama edition, advices getting rid of all hindrances via Anapanasati before exploring further.
That parallel is unfortunately missing in the Samyutta Nikaya.
With love :candle:
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Pulsar »

Alex123 brought us this excerpt, from Madhyama Agama.
In assemblies Uddaka Rāmaputta often spoke like this, “In this lifetime I have contemplated this and realized this. Not knowing the root of the tumor, I have subsequently come to know fully the root of the tumor.”
So to me here, it seems he (U.R.) was bragging, claiming he knew something that he did not really know. He is talking about the root of tumor, did he know the root of tumor? Only later Buddha figured out the root of tumor.
Root of the tumor was the "identification with arising of suffering" due to craving. When forms arise in mind, they are named as mine (a new identity is born with the newly formed consciousness along with suffering).
  • But Uddaka Ramaputta was clueless regarding this.
Excerpt continues:
Uddaka Rāmaputta was not omniscient yet he claimed to be omniscient; he had not actually realized but claimed to have realized. Uddaka Rāmaputta had this view and taught like this, “Existence is an illness, a tumor, a thorn. Those who advocate nonperception are foolish.
Uddaka R. "says those who advocate non-perception are foolish". But then Buddha after leaving him, realized he was full of baloney.
To Uddaka Ramaputta the above was the best.
The excerpt continues
Those who have realized [know]: this is tranquil, this is sublime, namely attaining the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception.”
What is Uddaka Ramaputta talking about? neither-perception or nor- non perception? He is still talking about worldly consciousness. It is better for the readers to study Sn 4.11 in order to understand where Uddaka Ramaputta went wrong.
The passage continues:
He delighted in his own identity and clung to his own identity. Attached to his own identity, he practiced attaining the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception. On the breaking up of the body at death, he was
reborn among the devas of neither-perception-nor-nonperception. When his life span there is exhausted he will return to this world and be reborn as a lowly person - MA114
This passage clearly tells us
those who practice Arupa samapatthis (Uddaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama?) delight in their own identity, and are eventually reborn as lowly people.
Sure interim they enter a strange deva world, with devas of neither-perception-nor-nonperception. But look at the outcome?

Dear robertk: based on the above claims found in the agama suttas, was it wise for later compilers of suttas to include Arupa samapatthis in the Buddhist canon?

Thanks OP for bringing this excerpt to our attention. I was not quite aware of this. But I know there is one sutta in Samyutta Nikaya where Buddha condemns Uddaka Ramaputta.
I will look for it when I have the time. The point however is how did a practice condemned by Buddha get inside the Pali canon, and get ranked above Samma Samadhi, which are clearly the 4 jhanas?
With love :candle:
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by Alex123 »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:31 pm Thanks OP for bringing this excerpt to our attention. I was not quite aware of this. But I know there is one sutta in Samyutta Nikaya where Buddha condemns Uddaka Ramaputta.
I will look for it when I have the time. The point however is how did a practice condemned by Buddha get inside the Pali canon, and get ranked above Samma Samadhi, which are clearly the 4 jhanas?
With love :candle:

Here it is

SN35.103 (10) Uddaka


“Bhikkhus, Uddaka Råmaputta used to make this declaration:

‘This, surely the knowledge-master—
This, surely the universal conqueror—
This, surely he has excised—
The tumour’s root not excised before!’

“Bhikkhus, though Uddaka Råmaputta was not himself a knowledge-master, he declared: ‘I am a knowledge-master.’ Though he was not himself a universal conqueror, he declared: ‘I am a universal conqueror.’ Though he had not excised the root of the tumour, he declared: ‘I have excised the root of the tumour.’ But here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu speaking rightly might say:

‘This, surely the knowledge-master—
This, surely the universal conqueror—
This, surely he has excised—
The tumour’s root not excised before!’

“And how, bhikkhus, is one a knowledge-master? When a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin, the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact, such a bhikkhu is a knowledge-master.

“And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu a universal conqueror? When, having understood as they really are the origin, the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to the six bases for contact, a bhikkhu is liberated by non-clinging, such a bhikkhu is a universal conqueror.

“And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu excise the root of the tumour that has not been excised before? ‘The tumour,’ bhikkhus: this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, subject to impermanence, to rubbing and pressing, to breaking apart and dispersal.& ‘The tumour’s root’: this is a designation for craving. When craving has been abandoned by a bhikkhu, cut off at the root, [84] made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising, in such a case the bhikkhu has excised the root of the tumour that has not been excised before. "
Bhikkhu Bodhi translation
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Re: Pre-awakened Gotama and his path to Liberation. Sutta oddities

Post by pudai »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:58 pm
Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:32 pm Alex123 wrote
I find it strange that those levels (aka "7th" and "8th" Jhana) didn't satisfy him (yet later on he remembered 1st Jhana as the Path to Awakening) so he left.
Why do you find it strange?
Pali canon does not call these so called 7th and 8th stages jhana.
The reason I called it "7th" and "8th" was:
a) It is shorter to write that than "base of nothingness" and "base of neither perception nor perception".
b) Traditionally these states are considered to come after 4 Jhanas, with base of nothingess being 7th stage and "base of neither perception nor perception" to be the 8th stage. Cessation of perception and feeling would come after that, sometimes referred to as "9th Jhana" for simplification/ being concise.

I find it strange that after attaining what supposed to be far deeper states, those states didn't lead to Awakening. But 1st Jhana does. The most likely resolution of that is the presence or absence of metaphysical views and baggage.


:namaste:
Sorry to interrupt the flow of conversation/debate and scholarly research...

That aside; It might be best to think of the chakra as the jhana... The 9th Jhana/chakra being nirodha; The 8th chakra/jhana best for uprooting the skandha with mindfulness... 7th chakra/jhana sitting on one's head such as Nammo Tasso etc etc and Phrasit Thimae"... 6th chakra/jhana seat of the "I" delusion/dreaming on the cushion... 5th chakra/jhana dhamakaya... 4th chakra/jhana to the 1st are the immeasurable(s)... The 4th is metta/loving kindness... and the last 3 chakra/jhana are filled with kammaskandha; Practicing the elements as a becoming is helpful to stay "pure" or in not falling back into samsara; If one has not mind-sealed(renounced the world) or practiced personal modesty/morality against those. Please note admitting defeat in the patimokkha meant broken the vow of renunciation... and since has become a demon abusing others on the path(seeking name, fortune, fame etc.) :stirthepot:
Last edited by pudai on Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
The six senses accommodate; All the factors of existence... The All.
Apart from; The All... Nothing exists.
The senses are empty of a self & what belongs to a self.
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