Boring Bhikkhus

[Sam Vara]

David Reynolds making some provocatively interesting points here:

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... oring.html

There's a lot there I agree with.

[lvcas]

It seems like it takes a lot of mastery to start expressing oneself with personality while not producing more kamma. Accomplished teachers seem to develop the faculty.

[SarathW]

Yes, I agree that some monks are very boring.
However, I have watched tons of Youtube Dhamma talks and I found them to be very interesting.
One of the video series very boring was the recent Dhamma talk by Bhante Sujato.

If monks can't get to the point soon I lose interest.

[robertk]

Venerable Nandaka repeats the same talk to the Nuns.
https://suttacentral.net/mn146/en/bodhi ... ight=false

Majjhima Nikāya
146. Advice from Nandaka
the venerable Nandaka told the bhikkhunīs:

.”
“Sisters, what do you think? Is the eye permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

“Sisters, what do you think? Is the ear….the nose…the tongue…the body…the mind permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six internal bases are impermanent.’”

“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.

“Sisters, what do you think? Are forms…sounds…odours… flavours…tangibles…mind-objects permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six external bases are impermanent.’”

“Good, good, sisters! So it is with a noble disciple who sees this as it actually is with proper wisdom.

“Sisters, what do you think? Is eye-consciousness… … ear-consciousness…nose-consciousness…tongue-consciousness… body-consciousness…mind-consciousness permanent or impermanent?” —“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”— “Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because, venerable sir, we have already seen this well as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘These six classes of consciousness are impermanent.’”



“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife. Then having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow…and cut, sever, and carve all that away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”

“Sisters, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The inner mass of flesh’ is a term for the six internal bases. ‘The outer hide’ is a term for the six external bases. ‘The inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The sharp butcher’s knife’ is a term for noble wisdom—the noble wisdom that cuts, severs, and carves away the inner defilements, fetters, and bonds.
[...]
”[...]
When the venerable Nandaka had advised the bhikkhunīs thus, he dismissed them, saying: “Go, sisters, it is time.”

Soon after they had left, the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: “Bhikkhus, just as on the Uposatha day of the fourteenth people are not doubtful or perplexed as to whether the moon is incomplete or full, since then the moon is clearly incomplete, so too, those bhikkhunīs are satisfied with Nandaka’s teaching of the Dhamma, but their intention has not yet been fulfilled.”

Then the Blessed One addressed the venerable Nandaka: “Well then, Nandaka, tomorrow too you should advise those bhikkhunīs in exactly the same way.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the venerable Nandaka replied. Then, the next morning, the venerable Nandaka dressed…repeat verbatim §§4–14 above, as far as …Then the bhikkhunīs paid homage to the Blessed One and departed keeping him on their right.

Soon after they had left, the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: “Bhikkhus, just as on the Uposatha day of the fifteenth people are not doubtful or perplexed as to whether the moon is incomplete or full, since then the moon is clearly full, so too, those bhikkhunīs are satisfied with Nandaka’s teaching of the Dhamma and their intention has been fulfilled. Bhikkhus, even the least advanced of those five hundred bhikkhunīs is a stream-enterer, no longer subject to perdition, bound for deliverance, headed for enlightenment.”

That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One’s words.

Only after the second time did the nuns fully grasp the meaning

Having said that, I once went to a Burmese monks vihara for the evening talk because I heard he was skilled in English.
He had a translation from the pali text society that he read from word for word, and that was all he spoke. I did admire his devotion to the orthodox but I was hoping for something a little more interactive.

[Radix]

When someone is bored with something, this boredom is an indicator that the person was looking for entertainment.

Hobbyists, dabblers, and seekers of entertainment easily get bored. Such is the nature of fun.

[sunnat]

Ponder on ‘what is this experience called bored’.

One may see a pile of vomit that smells. An unpleasant feeling arises. Instantly the vomit is blamed. But, The vomit just ‘is’. The yukky feeling is within one. The reaction is within.

Similarly a feeling of ‘bored’ arises. Is it correct to project that onto an exterior process. Is it not wiser to ‘own’ that feeling, develop equanimity in relation to it and see ‘bored’ rise and pass away and not perform kamma with regard to it, creating conditions for it to rise again. In time wisdom arises and what was ‘boring’ is no longer so.

[Sam Vara]

Thank you for the good points made so far. Some monks do indeed have an ability to express things in a way that is innovative and interesting, yet on reflection it seems to be perfectly in line with the suttas. I guess this takes a combination of creativity, deep learning, and a strong commitment to sila.

One obvious problem with being able to view so many teachings online is that we tend to skim them and not look for what personally nourishes us. It's part of the issue with how the internet is shortening our attention spans and discouraging in-depth thinking and reflection. Often, the suttas address a particular problem. If we have access to such suttas, but don't think we have that problem, then we won't engage with them. I often sit through talks where the basics of sila or dana or craving are talked about, and I tell myself that one can't have too much of this stuff.

People need to be reminded more than they need to be instructed

as Dr. Johnson said. But how much of the basics do we need?

There is of course the issue that we can bring a consumer mindset to our practice, which can contain a craving for something being new and interesting. So I take the point made by Radix and sunnat, although it is worth remembering that the opposite of being bored isn't being entertained, it's being interested. So it's right, I think, to look for those settings where the mind "leaps up" and is acquires confidence.

[DNS]

Theravada has always been known as the boring buddhist tradition.

Mahayana has lots of bells and whistles; beautiful colors, poetry, martial arts, dance, music, koans.

This is another reason why I find the Theravada so similar to Jainism, whereas Mahayana is more similar to Taoism. Theravada is seen as trying to escape the world, not to enjoy it.

I have to admit, the ancient Indian idea of fading out of worldly existence through radical renunciation, seclusion, and self-restraint does make sense, and I strove along those lines for many years. The subtlety and clarity of the mental states attainable through intensive meditation may be very exhilarating and even life-changing; but those are inward and personal, and may be untellable to others. One who has attained such states may still be boring, though with serenity and clarity in his eyes. He may not be boring internally, but externally he may be just another dogmatic avoider of karma with clear eyes looking downwards.

[mikenz66]

David Reynolds making some provocatively interesting points here:

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... oring.html

There's a lot there I agree with.

I find him boring in general to be honest. And it's odd how he jumps into a political rant at the end with no appartent connection to the rest of the essay.


Mike

[dharmacorps]

There are boring Ajahns out there sure. But if you don't find them inspiring find someone who is.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

David Reynolds making some provocatively interesting points here:

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... oring.html

There's a lot there I agree with.

Good blog post. For me, the crux of it was "I have to admit, the ancient Indian idea of fading out of worldly existence through radical renunciation, seclusion, and self-restraint does make sense." He's right, it does. But how far can we take that, as lay people, let alone a bhikkhu with a conducive environment and full license to be "boring"? This is a topic I've discussed here a bit in recent times.

Metta,
Paul.

[Sam Vara]

Greetings,

David Reynolds making some provocatively interesting points here:

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... oring.html

There's a lot there I agree with.

Good blog post. For me, the was the crux of it was "I have to admit, the ancient Indian idea of fading out of worldly existence through radical renunciation, seclusion, and self-restraint does make sense." He's right, it does. But how far can we take that, as lay people, let alone a bhikkhu with a conducive environment and full license to be "boring"? This is a topic I've discussed here a bit in recent times.

Metta,
Paul.

Part of this, if we relate to monastics rather than plough a more solitary furrow, is what use we can make of those monks who are boring. I take on board all that stuff about being aware of our own boredom as a mental state, etc., but it might be useful to decide whether a particular monk is boring because he was boring in lay life or because his talks are badly thought out; or whether he is boring because he is doing the good work of effacement and has no wish to engage with us and our concerns. If the latter, there is the possibility of that opening out into a contemplation of the Sangha and the human possibilities they exemplify.

One major advantage of my local monastery being a training monastery rather than a temple is that the monks are not there to be engaged with, at least not primarily. Their training is an object lesson in itself.

[mikenz66]

One major advantage of my local monastery being a training monastery rather than a temple is that the monks are not there to be engaged with, at least not primarily. Their training is an object lesson in itself.

That's great. Very inspiring (not boring...).


Mike

[dharmacorps]

When I had a big spiritual crisis in my younger years and I went exploring religious traditions, I quickly found Theravada Buddhism and discounted it quickly, at first, because it seemed obviously true, but boring. I wanted to hear crazy religious ideas-- gnosticism, elaborate rituals, mystery, secrecy, etc. Once I got nowhere with that except frustrated and confused, I went back to theravada because it was the only thing that made actual sense to me and gave the results it said it would.
So yes, there are boring theravada bhikkhus. I have found many that aren't though, and have a splendid sense of humor,--key for me.

[Goofaholix]

The writer makes some valid points but he obviously hasn't understood boredom, nobody can make someone else bored, and its not a monks job to distract us from our self induced boredom. Boredom comes from within and is just aversion and resistance to how things are, one doesn't find freedom from that unless one first stops trying to find distractions from it.