Is Nibbana independent?

[Josaphat]

Dependent origination points to the fact that all dhammas arise in dependence on other dhammas. But Nibbana is itself a dhamma, no? Does this mean that there is one dhamma that is excluded from dependent origination?

[santa100]

Dependent origination points to the fact that all dhammas arise in dependence on other dhammas. But Nibbana is itself a dhamma, no? Does this mean that there is one dhamma that is excluded from dependent origination?

Notice that dhamma ( conditioned AND un-conditioned phenomena ) is a bigger set to sankhara ( only conditioned phenemena ). So dependent origination applies to sankhara, ie. a sankhara arises and ceases based on conditions. Nibbana is un-conditioned, hence doesn't arise and cease based on the conditions of dependent origination. Sorta like the sun-rise/sun-set effects. While it seems to arise and cease depending on the time of the day, it's really always there.

[SarathW]

Think about the time we did not have mobile phones, computers, and the internet.
That free from hassles was always there.
In the same way think about a time we did not have attachment, aversion, and ignorance.
That is called Nibbana. That state was always there.
However refrain from objectifying the Nibbana if you do so you make Nibbana a condition state as proclaimed by pre-Buddhist sages.

[Mahabrahma]

So you asking if Nibbana contains Self, or is some sort of Transcendental Self? Or what you asking?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Nibbana is the extinction of aversion, delusion and greed.

It is not dependent upon anything, rather, it is the absence of dependence which is nibbana.

Metta,
Paul.

[cappuccino]

Nibbana is the extinction of aversion, delusion and greed.

That describes the third stage

[Josaphat]

So you asking if Nibbana contains Self, or is some sort of Transcendental Self? Or what you asking?

No. I was asking whether or not Nibbana is an exception to the dependent origination doctrine. From previous answers this seems to be the case. I got confused by the difference between sankharas and dhammas.

[Mahabrahma]

I think another great aspect of Nibbana is the access to Omniscience.

[asahi]

This is a invalid question since you do not know what is nibbana . No one in the forum knows , with exception everyone being told nibbana is absence of lobha byapada moha , a state while arahant is still alive but not after passing away . You cannot ask something you do not know what it is . What more to illustrate or define anything unknown to you . Is it a permanent state in the hereafter ?!

[Pondera]

I think another great aspect of Nibbana is the access to Omniscience.

Mahavira claimed to have omniscience. The Buddha claimed to have the three super knowledges. Recollection of past lives. Divine eye which sees beings pass away and be reborn. The knowledge of the destruction of the effluents.

The Buddha tore asunder all claims made by Mahavira to be in possession of Omniscience.

[Pondera]

I think another great aspect of Nibbana is the access to Omniscience.

In fact - it is appropriate that Mahabrahma hear about the omniscience of Mahabrahma.

From DN 11

"Then the monk attained to such a state of concentration that the way leading to the gods of the retinue of Brahma appeared in his centered mind. So he approached the gods of the retinue of Brahma and, on arrival, asked them, 'Friends, where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?'

"When this was said, the gods of the retinue of Brahma said to the monk, 'We also don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. But there is Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. He is higher and more sublime than we. He should know where the four great elements... cease without remainder.'

"'But where, friends, is the Great Brahma now?'

"'Monk, we also don't know where Brahma is or in what way Brahma is. But when signs appear, light shines forth, and a radiance appears, Brahma will appear. For these are the portents of Brahma's appearance: light shines forth and a radiance appears.'

"Then it was not long before Brahma appeared.

"So the monk approached the Great Brahma and, on arrival, said, 'Friend, where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder?'

"When this was said, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be.'

A second time, the monk said to the Great Brahma, 'Friend, I didn't ask you if you were Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. I asked you where these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder.'

"A second time, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be.'

"A third time, the monk said to the Great Brahma, 'Friend, I didn't ask you if you were Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. I asked you where these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder.'

"Then the Great Brahma, taking the monk by the arm and leading him off to one side, said to him, 'These gods of the retinue of Brahma believe, "There is nothing that the Great Brahma does not know. There is nothing that the Great Brahma does not see. There is nothing of which the Great Brahma is unaware. There is nothing that the Great Brahma has not realized." That is why I did not say in their presence that I, too, don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. So you have acted wrongly, acted incorrectly, in bypassing the Blessed One in search of an answer to this question elsewhere. Go right back to the Blessed One and, on arrival, ask him this question. However he answers it, you should take it to heart.'

[Mahabrahma]

What are you talking about?

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Omniscience

2.6. Division of Human Types by Six
1. There is the person who, in regard to doctrines he has not heard of before, thoroughly understands by his own effort the truths, and obtains therein omniscience as well as mastery over the fruits.

6.1.4. Dilemma the Fifty-Fifth. Asceticism

...

‘Both then also, O king, and now too, that is still the only path. And it is along that path that the Bodisat attained to Buddhahood. Although the Bodisat, O king, exerting himself strenuously, reduced the food he took till he had decreased it to nothing at all, and by that disuse of food he became weak in mind, yet when he returned little by little to the use of solid food, it was by that path that before long he attained to Buddhahood. And that only has been the path along which all the Tathāgatas reached to the attainment of the insight of omniscience.

6.1.4. Dilemma the Fifty-Fifth. Asceticism

...

'Great king, when the Blessed One attained omniscience at the foot of the tree of Knowledge, that was to him an ordination. There was no conferring of ordination upon him at the hands of others—in the way that the Blessed One laid down regulations for his disciples, never to be transgressed by them their lives long!’

[cappuccino]

Is it a permanent state in the hereafter ?!

Yes

[mjaviem]

Think about the time we did not have mobile phones, computers, and the internet.
That free from hassles was always there.
In the same way think about a time we did not have attachment, aversion, and ignorance.
That is called Nibbana. That state was always there.
...

Beautiful words, Sarath!!

[pegembara]

Think about the time we did not have mobile phones, computers, and the internet.
That free from hassles was always there.
In the same way think about a time we did not have attachment, aversion, and ignorance.
That is called Nibbana. That state was always there.
...

Beautiful words, Sarath!!

I like them too.

Just Be