Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,

Why not assess the matter yourself?
MN 117 wrote:"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Note how you can have "right view with effluents" without any knowledge of paticcsamuppada and idappaccayatā.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Dan74 »

To pick up on the interesting exchange between Sam and Bundokji, perhaps though the Judeo-Christian view may be more limited, an earnest application of it may well yield far more profound results than a lukewarm or self-styled indulgent or otherwise unguided Buddhist practice. Perhaps it was for this reason that the Dalai Lama counselled people against converting from Christianity and the Korean Patriarch of Buddhism Seonchol said, that although comparing Christianity to Buddhism doctrinally is like throwing an egg at a boulder, in practice it is often the opposite.

Looking at mystics like Meister Ekhart or the Sufis, it seems quite plausible to me that these people had high levels of attainment. Certainly the Abrahamic religions can lead people to give up a great deal of clinging and develop sufficient wisdom to glimpse dependent origination and attain the supreme fruit.
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:51 pm Greetings Sarath,

Why not assess the matter yourself?
MN 117 wrote:"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Note how you can have "right view with effluents" without any knowledge of paticcsamuppada and idappaccayatā.

Metta,
Paul. :)
:goodpost:

However for instance followers of Hinduism possess mundane rights views.
I think they fit under the formula you provided.
However, I think they do not have the right view.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dan74 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:02 pm Certainly the Abrahamic religions can lead people to give up a great deal of clinging and develop sufficient wisdom to glimpse dependent origination and attain the supreme fruit.
It could prime them (in terms of little dust over their eyes, etc.) to be capable of realising it, if they happened to be introduced to Dhammic teachings on the subject, but there is no sign of paticcasamuppada in the scriptures of Abrahamic religions. But as was said before, people are not the scriptures, and the scriptures are not people... what each individual person uses and relies upon in this life is ultimately up to them. These are amazing times really, in terms of what resources we can get access to in our native language.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by SarathW »

Dan74 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:02 pm To pick up on the interesting exchange between Sam and Bundokji, perhaps though the Judeo-Christian view may be more limited, an earnest application of it may well yield far more profound results than a lukewarm or self-styled indulgent or otherwise unguided Buddhist practice. Perhaps it was for this reason that the Dalai Lama counselled people against converting from Christianity and the Korean Patriarch of Buddhism Seonchol said, that although comparing Christianity to Buddhism doctrinally is like throwing an egg at a boulder, in practice it is often the opposite.

Looking at mystics like Meister Ekhart or the Sufis, it seems quite plausible to me that these people had high levels of attainment. Certainly the Abrahamic religions can lead people to give up a great deal of clinging and develop sufficient wisdom to glimpse dependent origination and attain the supreme fruit.
If you put some of them to the following formula it will not fit.

'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed.
There are fruits & results of good & bad actions.
There is this world & the next world.
There is mother & father.
There are spontaneously reborn beings;
There are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:05 pm Greetings,
Dan74 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:02 pm Certainly the Abrahamic religions can lead people to give up a great deal of clinging and develop sufficient wisdom to glimpse dependent origination and attain the supreme fruit.
It could prime them (in terms of little dust over their eyes, etc.) to be capable of realising it, if they happened to be introduced to Dhammic teachings on the subject, but there is no sign of paticcasamuppada in the scriptures of Abrahamic religions. But as was said before, people are not the scriptures, and the scriptures are not people... what each individual person uses and relies upon in this life is ultimately up to them. These are amazing times really, in terms of what resources we can get access to in our native language.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Many people are capable of rediscovering the Dhamma for themselves and as you say, there are teachings in the Abrahamic religions, which if followed correctly, could prime them for it. For hearing yes, but also for discovering for themselves and perhaps even realising fully.

For instant, yours truly discovered a version of Dependent Origination when thinking of particle physics as a young uni student. How can elementary particles have any identity of their own, I reasoned, since they are not made up of anything else? The only identity they must have is through interaction with other particles. And by implication everything else. But... there's a long road between such intellectual insights and actual full realisation.
_/|\_
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Mumfie »

SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:41 pm So in your opinion that Alara Kalama and Uddhakarama would have had the right view?
Though I don't think it's explicitly stated of them, I believe it's most likely that they would have had right view in the sense of being kammavādins.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:41 pmOn what grounds?
In the Ariyapariyesanasutta it's said that they had saddhā, paññā, sati, viriya and samādhi. But in what would this paññā have consisted?

Since it wasn't enough for them to arrive at any supramundane attainment it can't have been vipassanā-level paññā that discerns the danger in conditioned dhammas. But since it did lead them to the formless attainments, I surmise that it was samatha-level paññā, consisting in mundane right view and discernment of the danger in pleasures of the senses.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:41 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:41 pm So in your opinion that Alara Kalama and Uddhakarama would have had the right view?
Though I don't think it's explicitly stated of them, I believe it's most likely that they would have had right view in the sense of being kammavādins.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:41 pmOn what grounds?
In the Ariyapariyesanasutta it's said that they had saddhā, paññā, sati, viriya and samādhi. But in what would this paññā have consisted?

Since it wasn't enough for them to arrive at any supramundane attainment it can't have been vipassanā-level paññā that discerns the danger in conditioned dhammas. But since it did lead them to the formless attainments, I surmise that it was samatha-level paññā, consisting in mundane right view and discernment of the danger in pleasures of the senses.
:thanks:
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:03 pm However for instance followers of Hinduism possess mundane rights views.
I think they fit under the formula you provided.
Yes, I think they would.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:03 pm However, I think they do not have the right view.
I think specifically what they don't have is "right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path".

Paticcasamuppada / idappaccayata really is key here, because that's what breaks the three fetters associated with the realisation of sotapanna... personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of rites and rituals.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Mahabrahma »

I think if Christ Jesus wasn't murdered on a cross, there would be something similar to the Peaceful True Religion of Buddhism coming from Jesus, and people would be more accountable of their personal sins. This is my idea.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Dan74 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:02 pm Looking at mystics like Meister Ekhart or the Sufis, it seems quite plausible to me that these people had high levels of attainment. Certainly the Abrahamic religions can lead people to give up a great deal of clinging and develop sufficient wisdom to glimpse dependent origination and attain the supreme fruit.
There is a common tendency to judge/evaluate doctrines through the actions and beliefs of the mainstream. Cosmological structures that include lower realms serves that purpose: it gives us something to talk about. In mainstream Islam for example, it is widely believed that Muslims will be divided into more than 60 sects, only one will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell (let alone adherents of other religions/doctrines).

The mystical aspect is either spoke about in closed circles (esoteric sects) or noticed by individuals. For example, the tribe of prophet Muhammad shared a common ancestry with their rivals through twin brothers (Hashim & Abd Shams):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_Shams_ibn_Abd_Manaf

The rivalry between the two, which is pre-islamic, came to shape subsequent Islamic history, but what can be easily overlooked is that a Taoist view of Islam would give a totally different understanding on what the religion came to teach.

So, mysticism does not dismiss the mainstream view of things, but driven by the belief that the mainstream has its unique way of expressing deeper truths through public neurosis. As such, mystics are unlikely to oppose the mainstream publicly, and would go along with stories about heaven and hell as if it were real.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Kusala »

SecretSage wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:00 pm Certain Christian and Muslim groups support principles Theravada says leads towards hell like intolerance, violence, warfare, wrong speech, and others.

I think that the majority of Christians and Muslims are probably going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death except for the groups centered around metta (loving-kindness) teachings.

Many Christian and Muslim groups don't have a concept of hell centered around denying that suffering exists with ideas like "God will take care of everything, it always works out in the end, it's always a happy story with a happy ending"...they don't think there's any such thing as anything negative or any suffering exists...this allows them to sin ceaselessly without considering that anything negative could happen.

Many Christian and Muslim groups are similar to the ascetics who practice painful austerities reasoning that generating painful feelings leads to heaven or upwards whereas early Buddhism teaches the exact opposite.

It's mentioned that almost no ascetic who practiced painful austerities ever went to a heavenly world after death.

What do you think? It's already stated the majority of people in general go to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death.

I think they're hell worshippers or painful feeling worshippers...spawns from hellish worlds...except for some centered around metta teachings.


Intense encounter with a Muslim ghost...


@ 25:05 - 30:00


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He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by surfver »

SecretSage wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:00 pm Certain Christian and Muslim groups support principles Theravada says leads towards hell like intolerance, violence, warfare, wrong speech, and others.

I think that the majority of Christians and Muslims are probably going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death except for the groups centered around metta (loving-kindness) teachings.

Many Christian and Muslim groups don't have a concept of hell centered around denying that suffering exists with ideas like "God will take care of everything, it always works out in the end, it's always a happy story with a happy ending"...they don't think there's any such thing as anything negative or any suffering exists...this allows them to sin ceaselessly without considering that anything negative could happen.

Many Christian and Muslim groups are similar to the ascetics who practice painful austerities reasoning that generating painful feelings leads to heaven or upwards whereas early Buddhism teaches the exact opposite.

It's mentioned that almost no ascetic who practiced painful austerities ever went to a heavenly world after death.

What do you think? It's already stated the majority of people in general go to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death.

I think they're hell worshippers or painful feeling worshippers...spawns from hellish worlds...except for some centered around metta teachings.
The Bible speaks of a future age when there are no wars. Some wars seem to have a noble cause, others not. Sometimes people may be deceived by a particular war because of propaganda or poor understanding. I believe this is especially common today. There is a great deal of money and power involved in what is referred to as the military industrial complex and others who are trying to control the world via conflict and other means. President Eisenhower made a famous speech and warned us of the military industrial complex. Propaganda and control of the press and corporate control is very strong these days. It may occur in countries where there are a lot of Christians but it is not run by religious people for the most part. This is often referred to as the new world order and the kinds of people behind these are more pagan than anything and the truth is there are secret occult groups involved as well

The book of James says:

Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

And also says:

Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him

============

I don’t think it says that suffering will not occur but there is an attitude about suffering which is not always easy.

This is also a catholic prayer:

“Lord forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell.
Lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need”

Jesus also said “do not be deceived”. He also said even the elect may be deceived. I believe we live in a world where many are deceived because of intense propaganda.

Jesus said:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by beginnermind38 »

If they are good they can make it to one of the heavens. Just will not be permanent like they thought and when the very long lifespan is done they will be reborn as a human or in one of those lower realms you mentioned depending on the karma of that particular being. Seeing that any state of being based on the five factors changes and eventually passes away is not something that they are willing to do.
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