Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SecretSage
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Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by SecretSage »

Certain Christian and Muslim groups support principles Theravada says leads towards hell like intolerance, violence, warfare, wrong speech, and others.

I think that the majority of Christians and Muslims are probably going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death except for the groups centered around metta (loving-kindness) teachings.

Many Christian and Muslim groups don't have a concept of hell centered around denying that suffering exists with ideas like "God will take care of everything, it always works out in the end, it's always a happy story with a happy ending"...they don't think there's any such thing as anything negative or any suffering exists...this allows them to sin ceaselessly without considering that anything negative could happen.

Many Christian and Muslim groups are similar to the ascetics who practice painful austerities reasoning that generating painful feelings leads to heaven or upwards whereas early Buddhism teaches the exact opposite.

It's mentioned that almost no ascetic who practiced painful austerities ever went to a heavenly world after death.

What do you think? It's already stated the majority of people in general go to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death.

I think they're hell worshippers or painful feeling worshippers...spawns from hellish worlds...except for some centered around metta teachings.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Are these just rumors and stories you have heard in this world full of mara's lies, who's cunning is dull, or is this something you've experienced first hand?
That sage who has perfect insight,
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Mahabrahma »

When's the last time you've actually met a mean Christian or Muslim?
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by DNS »

Anyone from any religion can make it to one of the heavenly realms.

Another person has practiced the making of merit by giving as well as by moral discipline to a high degree; but he has not undertaken the making of merit by meditation. With the breakup of the body, after death, he will be reborn among humans in a favorable condition. Or he will be reborn in the company of the devas of the Four Great Kings.” Anguttara Nikaya 4.241-243

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http://www.justbegood.net/
SarathW
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by SarathW »

I think your question can be equally applicable to Buddhists too.
Only a Sotapanna has assured a favorable rebirth.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sam Vara
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:17 pm I think your question can be equally applicable to Buddhists too.
Only a Sotapanna has assured a favorable rebirth.
:goodpost:

This is something addressed by Ajahn Jayasaro in his "Yellow Page Teachings" a few months ago:
Until we reach Stream Entry, the first level of enlightenment, all of the positive changes we have made through our Dhamma practice are unstable and unreliable. They may seem to be rock solid, but they are not. It is only at Stream Entry that they become irreversible. The statement that this human realm is dukkha does not necessarily mean that it is a source of constant pain. It is a reminder that as soon as unenlightened beings let down their guard, even for a moment, the world is likely to bite them hard. Mundane goodness is not enough.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by dharmacorps »

Unless you have the dhamma eye, don't worry about it.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by SDC »

According to the suttas, most people are headed to places of woe.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by asahi »

I believes people like mother Theresa already in heavens .
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Abrahamic religions teaches mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens. Siding with merit and resulting in acquisition leans towards eternalism. Leaning towards eternalism in that context means that the return to heaven can be eternal whereas descending to hell can be either temporary or eternal - depending on the nature of sin. The biggest sin of all within that framework is disbelieving in God, or worshiping other gods.

Nihilism, on the other hand, does not provide reasoning as to why to side with merit considering that it excludes any form of eternalism. It is described as the best of wrong views because it acknowledges impermanence, but still as dependently originated phenomena, having eternalism as its shadow.

As such, the Buddhist solution to provide a coherent cosmological model that leads to end of dukkha is to side with eternalism, presenting it as a vicious cycle of death and rebirth (i.e samsara). Anicca is then utilized to make an escape a theoretical possibility (siding with the nihilist) by presenting anicca as a constant in all conditioned phenomena that annihilates both eternalism and nihilism.

The human realm in Buddhist cosmology is a heavenly realm albeit the lowest. Humans as a race have relative dominance over the world of the sense. Being dominant and yet miserable translates into a nostalgia to return to a higher heaven. In Abrahamic religions, the return to a sensual heaven is the goal of the holy life, whereas in Buddhism, the heaven and earth equation is part of samsara where sensual heavens are not denied outright, but presented as equally subject to impermanence, and inhabited by beings that are not necessarily less deluded than humans. This, in itself, provides reasoning as to why we are stuck in samsara: it can be rewarding, and siding with merit (mundane right view) can achieve that.

The relative dominance on earth, combined with dukkha as a result of annica, produced the other two extremes: hedonism and asceticism. A hedonist naturally sides with the nihilist: there is nothing after death, so let me get my fill of sensual pleasures before the shit hits the fan (death). Ascetics, on the other hand, see the unsatisfactory nature of existence and side with eternalism: let us suppress all sensual desires during our short life span as humans in order to secure a better rebirth. It is therefore to be expected that hedonists and nihilists are focused on the here and now, whereas eternalists and ascetics are future oriented.

Most religions attempted to come up with a balancing act to juggle between the extremes, that is, a middle path of some sort. They banned adultery but encouraged marriage. The banned stealing but allowed work. They banned unlawful killing but considered defending ones property or country as the highest virtue. They ritualized worshiping while organizing the pursuit of sensuality. By giving up the excess of the extremes and combining what is left, they juggle their way to the afterlife using caveats to the best of their abilities.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:23 pm Abrahamic religions teaches mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
To do them justice, they don't do that. They teach something which you interpret to be mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:58 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:23 pm Abrahamic religions teaches mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
To do them justice, they don't do that. They teach something which you interpret to be mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
Which part of mundane right view they do not teach?
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:04 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:58 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:23 pm Abrahamic religions teaches mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
To do them justice, they don't do that. They teach something which you interpret to be mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
Which part of mundane right view they do not teach?
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
They don't teach any part of it. Most of them have never heard of that phrase. They teach something entirely different, which you think can be mapped onto your understanding of that phrase and that list.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:00 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:04 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:58 pm

To do them justice, they don't do that. They teach something which you interpret to be mundane right view which can lead to sensual heavens.
Which part of mundane right view they do not teach?
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
They don't teach any part of it. Most of them have never heard of that phrase. They teach something entirely different, which you think can be mapped onto your understanding of that phrase and that list.
If you mean that they don't describe their teachings as "mundane right view" then i would agree even though failing to see the significance of the point you are making. The point i was trying to make refers to them answering in the positive to each point included in the list of what constitutes mundane right view as described in MN117.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:00 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:04 pm

Which part of mundane right view they do not teach?

They don't teach any part of it. Most of them have never heard of that phrase. They teach something entirely different, which you think can be mapped onto your understanding of that phrase and that list.
If you mean that they don't describe their teachings as "mundane right view" then i would agree even though failing to see the significance of the point you are making. The point i was trying to make refers to them answering in the positive to each point included in the list of what constitutes mundane right view as described in MN117.
My point is that we only think we know what mundane right view is, so should be wary about applying it to different traditions. Of course, you might be completely confident in this, but the synecdoche and metaphor seem to be grounds for caution...
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