Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Bundokji
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm My point is that we only think we know what mundane right view is, so should be wary about applying it to different traditions. Of course, you might be completely confident in this, but the synecdoche and metaphor seem to be grounds for caution...
I view studying religious texts as often an exercise in hermeneutics, hence interpretive rather than definitive. Your call for caution is mitigated through sharing certain interpretations/understandings publicly, allowing for scrutiny and improvements. As such, i still do not see the point you are making, unless you choose to share a better understanding of what mundane right view is, demonstrating why it does not apply to adherents of Christianity and/or Islam, even if they happen to answer in the affirmative to each of its components.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mikenz66
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by mikenz66 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:44 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm My point is that we only think we know what mundane right view is, so should be wary about applying it to different traditions. Of course, you might be completely confident in this, but the synecdoche and metaphor seem to be grounds for caution...
... i still do not see the point you are making, unless you choose to share a better understanding of what mundane right view is, demonstrating why it does not apply to adherents of Christianity and/or Islam, even if they happen to answer in the affirmative to each of its components.
The problem, which you may not be noticing as it's so normalized on this Forum, is using the definitions of one belief system to define another. The implication of such definitions is usually that the system you're using is superior, and you have more insight into the other system than the actual practitioners of it. It's like these silly argument about different Buddhist belief systems: "Those Mahayana people don't know how to read suttas properly" or "The Hinayana approach is OK as far as it goes, but our Mahayana approach contains that, and more...". The latter is actually pretty similar to your pronouncements about Abrahamic religiions.

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Bundokji
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:00 pm The problem, which you may not be noticing as it's so normalized on this Forum, is using the definitions of one belief system to define another. The implication of such definitions is usually that the system you're using is superior, and you have more insight into the other system than the actual practitioners of it. It's like these silly argument about different Buddhist belief systems: "Those Mahayana people don't know how to read suttas properly" or "The Hinayana approach is OK as far as it goes, but our Mahayana approach contains that, and more...". The latter is actually pretty similar to your pronouncements about Abrahamic religiions.
Using one definition of one belief system to define another is to be expected in the "connection to other paths" forum. The question raised by the OP uses lower realms as taught in Buddhist cosmology to determine the future destination of the majority of Christian and Muslims. Also in a Buddhist forum, we tend to agree that our belief system is superior to others and i do not see this as a problem or a bug. Part of this superiority, in my opinion, is that the Buddha did not close the door completely to people who do not seek nibbana in this life, including followers of other sects.

Also the background of individual discussants might influence their input. I am a Buddhist convert, learned about Buddhism mostly from engaging with other Buddhists on the internet and reading Buddhist materials, while still live in a Muslim country. Before encountering the Buddha's teachings, i had aversion towards the religion of my people. To interpret mundane right view as to what they practice helped me find a lot of common ground with them. As Buddhism is designed to teach the individual, i assume that each of us tries to apply it to his/her own situation in one way or another. In fact, i would be surprised if practitioners do not apply the Buddha's teachings in their everyday life.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by DNS »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:38 pm Also in a Buddhist forum, we tend to agree that our belief system is superior to others and i do not see this as a problem or a bug.
I agree. Just as in a Christian forum, we might expect to see them discussing something like "what is the Christian view of Buddha?" And then participants would answer from the Christian perspective, assuming the Christian theology is superior and correct.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by DNS »

Since we're talking about Moses (edit: Moses was the topic in another thread, but perhaps still relevant here in comparing 10 Commandments with Buddhist Precepts), let's look at the Ten Commandments:

1. Thou shall have no other gods before me. I, YHWH your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
4. Honour thy father and thy mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife or his slaves, or his animals, or anything of thy neighbour.

Number 3 corresponds to Uposatha Days.
Number 4 corresponds to general sila and respecting one's parents.
Number 5 corresponds to the First Precept (although buddhism includes all sentient beings, not just humans)
Number 6 corresponds to Third Precept
Number 7 corresponds to Second Precept
Number 8 corresponds to Fourth Precept
Numbers 9 & 10 corresponds to brahma viharas, not having greed and instead having mudita.

Only numbers 1 & 2 would be considered wrong view, from the buddhist perspective.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:44 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm My point is that we only think we know what mundane right view is, so should be wary about applying it to different traditions. Of course, you might be completely confident in this, but the synecdoche and metaphor seem to be grounds for caution...
I view studying religious texts as often an exercise in hermeneutics, hence interpretive rather than definitive. Your call for caution is mitigated through sharing certain interpretations/understandings publicly, allowing for scrutiny and improvements. As such, i still do not see the point you are making, unless you choose to share a better understanding of what mundane right view is, demonstrating why it does not apply to adherents of Christianity and/or Islam, even if they happen to answer in the affirmative to each of its components.
The point I am making is that it appears presumptuous for a relatively recent and self-taught convert to Buddhism to opine Buddhistically and definitively on three huge religious traditions.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

DNS wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:53 pm Since we're talking about Moses, let's look at the Ten Commandments:

1. Thou shall have no other gods before me. I, YHWH your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
4. Honour thy father and thy mother.
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife or his slaves, or his animals, or anything of thy neighbour.

Number 3 corresponds to Uposatha Days.
Number 4 corresponds to general sila and respecting one's parents.
Number 5 corresponds to the First Precept (although buddhism includes all sentient beings, not just humans)
Number 6 corresponds to Third Precept
Number 7 corresponds to Second Precept
Number 8 corresponds to Fourth Precept
Numbers 9 & 10 corresponds to brahma viharas, not having greed and instead having mudita.

Only numbers 1 & 2 would be considered wrong view, from the buddhist perspective.
"Corresponds" is doing a lot of work here. There are similarities in the outward forms, but seen in context there are differences. For example, Uposatha and the Sabbath are special days, but for very different reasons. Uposatha is less frequent, and is not aknowledging God's rest-day after creation. And take, for example, the Christian (certainly Roman Catholic) injunction against killing. It's only against murder, some types of homicide are allowed; and life is held to be sacred because it is a unique gift from God.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by DNS »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:18 pm "Corresponds" is doing a lot of work here.
True, perhaps similar would have been better, but even that might be a stretch, considering the context and usage.

The biggest difference is the First Commandment, which most people only know from the very abbreviated form. The full commandment includes punishing successive generations for "sins of the father" totally against laws of kamma, kamma-vipaka. It also focuses on a Creator-God, also wrong view for buddhism.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

DNS wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:25 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:18 pm "Corresponds" is doing a lot of work here.
True, perhaps similar would have been better, but even that might be a stretch, considering the context and usage.

The biggest difference is the First Commandment, which most people only know from the very abbreviated form. The full commandment includes punishing successive generations for "sins of the father" totally against laws of kamma, kamma-vipaka. It also focuses on a Creator-God, also wrong view for buddhism.
Well, I've probably sinned a lot more than my father did, so maybe I should convert! :D

Yes, it's the permeation of most of the issues with the idea of God which causes me to exercise caution.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:57 pm The point I am making is that it appears presumptuous for a relatively recent and self-taught convert to Buddhism to opine Buddhistically and definitively on three huge religious traditions.
I never presumed an expert or scholarly position to begin with, nor did i know that there is a certain minimum qualifications to opine on a question related to Buddhism or other traditions in here.

As i stated earlier, sharing views publicly makes them subject to scrutiny and possible improvements and corrections. As such, it is probably better to focus on the message rather than the messenger.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:57 pm The point I am making is that it appears presumptuous for a relatively recent and self-taught convert to Buddhism to opine Buddhistically and definitively on three huge religious traditions.
I never presumed an expert or scholarly position to begin with, nor did i know that there is a certain minimum qualifications to opine on a question related to Buddhism or other traditions in here.

As i stated earlier, sharing views publicly makes them subject to scrutiny and possible improvements and corrections. As such, it is probably better to focus on the message rather than the messenger.
You have to be pretty confident to understand Right View and how it comprehends a gigantic varied religious tradition, and I guess that's the only qualification needed.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:58 pm You have to be pretty confident to understand Right View and how it comprehends a gigantic varied religious tradition, and I guess that's the only qualification needed.
I respectfully disagree. My input was limited to a certain understanding of mundane right view and how it can apply to each tradition through what they try to achieve. No gigantic qualifications is needed. The only level of confidence that is needed is to share what you believe to be true, until proven otherwise.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:11 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:58 pm You have to be pretty confident to understand Right View and how it comprehends a gigantic varied religious tradition, and I guess that's the only qualification needed.
I respectfully disagree. My input was limited to a certain understanding of mundane right view and how it can apply to each tradition through what they try to achieve. No gigantic qualifications is needed. The only level of confidence that is needed is to share what you believe to be true, until proven otherwise.
You might want to re-read my post. It's the religious tradition which is gigantic, not the qualifications.
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:15 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:11 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 11:58 pm You have to be pretty confident to understand Right View and how it comprehends a gigantic varied religious tradition, and I guess that's the only qualification needed.
I respectfully disagree. My input was limited to a certain understanding of mundane right view and how it can apply to each tradition through what they try to achieve. No gigantic qualifications is needed. The only level of confidence that is needed is to share what you believe to be true, until proven otherwise.
You might want to re-read my post. It's the religious tradition which is gigantic, not the qualifications.
I was merely interested in providing a relevant answer, setting aside right view, gigantic traditions and qualifications.

Is there anything you wanted to tell me but holding back? did you find the way i answered to be offensive, arrogant or rude? because apart from that, i do not see where you objections are coming from.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Are the majority of Christians and Muslims going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:52 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:15 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:11 am

I respectfully disagree. My input was limited to a certain understanding of mundane right view and how it can apply to each tradition through what they try to achieve. No gigantic qualifications is needed. The only level of confidence that is needed is to share what you believe to be true, until proven otherwise.
You might want to re-read my post. It's the religious tradition which is gigantic, not the qualifications.
I was merely interested in providing a relevant answer, setting aside right view, gigantic traditions and qualifications.
Sure, I don't doubt that your point is relevant.
Is there anything you wanted to tell me but holding back?
No, I've made my point more than once, thanks.
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