3 characteristics of conditioned things.

[SarathW]

Hello all,
In AN 3:47 it says that there are 3 characteristics of saṅkhata (uppādo, vayo, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ)

Arising, passing away, alteration while staying.

What, if any, significance of "alteration while staying" being listed last? Wouldn't it make more sense to change the order to:
"Arising, alteration while staying, passing away"?


Thanks,

Trinities can take many different forms: it can be science, religion and philosophy. It can be body, soul and mind. It can be arising, persisting and ceasing. It can be creating, preserving and destruction. These are always interchangeable. You can always ask: why arising is not cessation or persisting, until you realize it is meaningless question.

viewtopic.php?t=44877

Does this mean when we say arising it also means something else is persisting and ceasing etc?
This means this is due to self-view and ignorance we see things as arising, persisting, and ceasing.

[mjaviem]

...
I'm not aware of "saṁ" meaning "satisfactory". Rather it's an intensifier, at least with this word. What basis do you have for your translation? On Ajahn Buddhadasa, I don't see much difference between his use of the word and Venerable Bodhi's. It appears to differ in phrasing but not in the meaning, as we Buddhists say.

The basis I have is only what I explained above. "Sam-" to me means "complete" in the sense of "completeness" or "something satisfactory that is complete and lacks nothing". So sam-pajañña is in my view "satisfactory wisdom" or that wisdom which is adequate. Sampajañña is usually found together with sati, as you know. So what I'm saying is that Bhikkhu Bodhi translates satisampajañña as "mindfulness and clear comprehension". The fully-engaged-in-the-present-moment crowd might approve this translation but this is not the meaning of satisampajañña. The meaning in my view is "not forgeting the adequate wisdom or appropiate understanding". It's not the awareness as understood in the mindfulness movement. And I consider Bodhi's not a good translation here and probably biased. I think it's different in meaning or lead to understand differently. You know, "mindfulness and clear comprehension"... Sounds to being attentive and considerate with the surroundings but I don't know, English is at least one of your mother's language not mine's. Perhaps you get a different concept from this phrasing. In my case, I need to think in remembering what one learned for the particular situation. For example keep in mind not to lie if communicating with someone. or many other teachings

[Alex123]

All three characteristics are implicit simultaneously in things that are transitory (anicca). To contemplate arising, passing and staying don't mean to take the time to se things arise, stay, cease chronologically in time, no need to wait ... you never would be able to contemplate anicca in your aggregates, you can se your aggregates stay while altering and arising and passing away is implicit, is simultaneous, you where born even if you didn't remember your birth, and you will die an don't need to wait to your death to know that aggregates are anicca. Same knowing that aggregates are anicca your death is granted, already here.

So lets say, for example, one sits cross-legged to meditate. Then at some point there will arise a pain in the knee. It might persist for a while and then pass away (perhaps when one moves the leg). Why can't this be observed, the moment the painful feeling started to arise, when it persisted and when it has gradually ended. Similar with other specific phenomena. Then of course one needs to have fixed inference that all past, future and present arisen phenomena have the same characteristics (asubha, sunna, anicca->dukkha->anatta, etc).

As for aggregates. To be precise, aggregate is a category and as such it doesn't arise and cease while one is in samsara. Its specific quality does. Ex: vedana khandha always "exists" while one is in samsara. The specific vedana can be seen to arise, persist and cease.

[Ceisiwr]

Ex: vedana khandha always "exists". The specific vedana can be seen to arise, persist and cease.

The Sarvāstivādins really ran with that idea.

[Alex123]

Ex: vedana khandha always "exists". The specific vedana can be seen to arise, persist and cease.

The Sarvāstivādins really ran with that idea.

I should have added that khandhas, as a category, always "exists" while one in Samsara. PariNibbana is the total end.