SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

[frank k]

...

You are nuts. Now you're saying the devas in the sutta are also at least stream enterers, so they can cheer on new ordainess who are at least stream enterers (And They boo the other ordainees who aren't at least stream enterers).

There's a word the Buddha uses to describe noble ones. Ariya.
Not noble ones = an-ariya.

There's also sekha (at least stream enterer) and asekha (arahants)

So there are much easier ways to indicate attainment of 4 paths or not.

sutava ariya savaka, or just ariya savaka, is used to contrast with non Buddhist worldlings., not contrast with an-ariya. (remember ariya and an-ariya)? Duh.

I'm done talking to you.
If you, or anyone else finds a sutta that you think proves your case, you're welcome to post it.
That's the sign of someone not attached to views, open to whatever the evidence says.
I was unsure for a long time, and if there's new contradictory evidence I was unaware of, I'll change my mind instantly.
I go with the evidence and truth, not clingng stubbornly to a favored view like you.
But you're almost guaranteed to be wasting your time, since Bodhi, sujato, Thanissaro, and myself have all read suttas many times most likely more than you and have not found a sutta to disprove the point.

[frank k]

... MN 14 and MN 146

MN 14: you don't have to be a stream entererer to be able to do jhāna. Devadatta could do jhana. the 16 brahmans before they met the bUddha could do jhana (Snp 5).

MN 146: same as with many suttas where arahantship happening, of course a stream enterer or higher is going to work for 'ariya savaka', and for that sutta works fine. But there's nothing in that sutta that excludes disciples who aren't yet ariya.
Look at SN 47.4 for example. Whether they're arahant, new ordainee, they practice the same thing (as the instructions in MN 146)

[frank k]

There are 3 causes for celebration.
The 2nd one, the devas celebrate when the monks are doing battle using wings of awakening.
the first one, is when someone decides to ordain.
If ariya savaka must be a stream enterer,
then it means the devas are very prejudiced.
They don't celebrate if an ordinary non stream enterer joe ordains, only if stream enterer steve ordains.
ANd for the 2nd case of celebration,
they don't celebrate if ordinary joe is battling Mara, They only celebrate when stream enterer steve is battling mara.
Does that seem likely to you?
Having prejudiced devas?

Here's one:
Iti 82
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -gods.html

It implies that anyone who ordains, is already a stream enterer (it's talking about newly ordained ariya savakas).

This is your own translation from the link above (with ariyasāvako left without translation):

This was said by the Buddha, the Perfected One: that is what I heard.
“monks, these three divine sounds are issued by the gods from time to time.
Which three?
When a ariyasāvako shaves off their hair and beard, dresses in ocher robes, and goes forth from the home life into homelessness,
At that time the gods cry out [with joy]:
‘This ariyasāvako made up his mind and declared war on Māra [the Evil one]!’
This is the first occasion a divine sound is issued by the gods.
...

Please indicate a fragment from the sutta where you see that the sutta is talking about "any one who ordains" and not only about ordination of ariyasāvaka?

[Sasha_A]

There are 3 causes for celebration.
The 2nd one, the devas celebrate when the monks are doing battle using wings of awakening.
the first one, is when someone decides to ordain.
If ariya savaka must be a stream enterer,
then it means the devas are very prejudiced.

No. It simply means that the sutta is talking about the reactions of the devas to the actions of the aryasavakas only. If the sutta says nothing about ordinary people, it does not mean that there is prejudice against them, it just means that ordinary people are simply not mentioned in the sutta, nothing more and nothing less.

And I have to repeat my unanswered question:
Please indicate a fragment from the sutta where you see that the sutta is talking about "any one who ordains" and not only about ordination of ariyasāvaka?

[Joe.c]

...

You are nuts. Now you're saying the ariya devas in the sutta are also at least stream enterers, so they can cheer on new ordainess who are at least stream enterers (And They boo the other ordainees who aren't at least stream enterers).

I knew you will say this. Here is the Sutta that Deva know they are at least stream enterer. Other deva who doesn't have confidence in Buddha's teaching doesn't care with Buddha, true dhamma and his disciple.

Tissa, which gods know that they are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening?”

“The gods of the Four Great Kings know this.”

“But do all of them know this?”

“No, my good Moggallāna, not all of them. Those who lack experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and lack the ethics loved by the noble ones, do not know that they are stream-enterers. But those who have experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and have the ethics loved by the noble ones, do know that they are stream-enterers.”

“But Tissa, is it only the gods of the Four Great Kings who know that they are stream-enterers, or do the gods of the Thirty-Three … the Gods of Yama … the Joyful Gods … the Gods Who Love to Create … and the Gods Who Control the Creations of Others know that they are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening?”

“The gods of these various classes know this.”

“But do all of them know this?”

“No, my good Moggallāna, not all of them. Those who lack experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and lack the ethics loved by the noble ones, do not know that they are stream-enterers. But those who have experiential confidence in the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, and have the ethics loved by the noble ones, do know that they are stream-enterers.”

Dude having jhana doesn't mean it is a samma samadhi (jhana). You need to have samma sati with all other 6 factors. So all 8 factors (N8FP) need to be present. You use jhana to stop all asava(s), break all the bonds, not to do some psychic power only.

Devadatta doesn't have samma samadhi due to wrong view. He has micha samadhi.

This is why when the thought of leading the sangha arise, he lost all the psychic power.

...Then the god Kakudha went up to Venerable Mahāmoggallāna, bowed, stood to one side, and said to him,

“Sir, this fixed desire arose in Devadatta: ‘I shall lead the mendicant Saṅgha.’

And as that thought arose, Devadatta lost that psychic power.”

[Joe.c]

No. It simply means that the sutta is talking about the reactions of the devas to the actions of the aryasavakas only.

This. The Sutta clearly said ariyasavaka, not a puthujjana that ordain/shave their head.

While Frank say someone who can be a puthujjana:

"the first one, is when someone decides to ordain."

There is no freaking way that an ariya deva will rejoice for a puthujjana (without pure intention) to shave their head to join Sangha.

The regular deva is just there enjoying their kamma vipaka without any concern about true dhamma. They don't care about a puthujjana (with smelling body) to join Sangha at all.

[Sasha_A]

There is no freaking way that an ariya deva will rejoice for a puthujjana (without pure intention) to shave their head to join Sangha.

The sutta does not say that either.

It says only about the attitude of the devas towards the particular deeds of the ariyasāvakas, the sutta says absolutely nothing about the attitude of the devas towards the deeds of ordinary people.

[Joe.c]

There is no freaking way that an ariya deva will rejoice for a puthujjana (without pure intention) to shave their head to join Sangha.

The sutta does not say that either.

It says only about the attitude of the devas towards the particular deeds of the ariyasāvakas, the sutta says absolutely nothing about the attitude of the devas towards the deeds of ordinary people.

Well i know.

If you don’t believe me try to talk to a billionaire, and ask to meet him. I bet it is very difficult to even see one. Let alone the billionaire will rejoice to see you. But another billionaire or smart person can easily see the billionaire. And the billionaire would be happy to see or learn from them.

Same thing with deva, deva could care less about ordinary human. Because they know more than regular human. But when one is an ariyasavaka, then it is different story.

But try to know how deva live or act.

Like i said if you want to know, one needs to become deva here and now. Perfecting precepts and other faculties, no need to wait till death of this coarse body to see/know.

One can transform the physical body with body development is being fulfilled. You will have the body similar to deva. Don’t believe me see many example in Sutta about Buddha body, an arahant Body or other nobles. But don’t get to attach to the body as well, body is just body. And continue to develop other faculties.

This human world is junk compare to the deva world. But all the world is just that. To progress need to understand their world as well with samadhi (even no psychic power, one can experience all world here and now).

Anyway there is only black and white in Buddha teaching. There is no grey area.

Puthujjana never see an ariya.

It’s when an unlearned ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons.

“Idha, bhikkhu, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṁ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto sappurisānaṁ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto

Ariyasavaka has seen other nobles.

“It’s when a learned noble disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons.

“Idha, bhikkhu, sutavā ariyasāvako ariyānaṁ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto sappurisānaṁ dassāvī sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suvinīto

So ask the question for oneself personally, Have I seen any noble or not? Have i hear true dhamma from an ariya or not? Have I got the 4 factor of stream enterer or not? Have I understood 4NT, N8FP or not? Do I have the same perfected precepts as other ariyas as well or not? Please answer these truthfully, because only you know personally, there is no Buddha that can come verify for you.

If there is a No in any, then alas one is still a puthujjana. One is not yet an ariyasavaka.

Anyway good luck. Look like i wasted too much time for this basic, but it is very important indeed.

[Sasha_A]

SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... avaka.html

Let's analyze the translation of SN55.40 by mentioned by you Ven. Thanissaro:

1) Here is the Nandiya's question with the original translation of "ariyasavaka" as "a disciple of the noble ones":

"Lord, the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking: Is he called a disciple of the noble ones who lives heedlessly?"

And here is the Buddha's answer to that question:

"Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill."

Stop! That not the answer to the Nandiya's question, it is something that has no relation to the question – it some kind of side-notes on the meaning of the "outsider".

And only after making that strange unrelated remark the Buddha is answering the Nandiya's question:

But as to how a disciple of the noble ones dwells in heedlessness and dwells in heedfulness, listen well and pay attention, I will speak.

And how, Nandiya, does a disciple of the noble ones dwell in heedlessness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One…
And further, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma…
And further, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Saṅgha…
And further, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones…

This is how a disciple of the noble ones dwells in heedlessness.

But wait! This is not the answer to the original question about "heedless life of the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking", it is the answer to the question completely opposite to the Nandiya's question – it is the answer to the question about "heedless life of the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether present".

2) Let's now replace "disciple of the noble ones" with "noble disciple":
Here is the Nandiya's question:

"Lord, the noble disciple in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking: Is he called a noble disciple who lives heedlessly?"

And here is the Buddha's answer to that question:

"Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill."

Here we have the Buddha absolutely rightfully correcting Nandiya on the implied in his question wrong understanding of the noble disciple: the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking is an outsider, an ordinary man - that person is not a noble disciple. The Nandiya's question without such correction is simply illegitimate and cannot be rightfully answered. And only after that correction was made the Buddha answered the corrected version of the Nandiya's question:

But as to how a noble disciple dwells in heedlessness and dwells in heedfulness, listen well and pay attention, I will speak.

And how, Nandiya, does a noble disciple dwell in heedlessness? There is the case where a noble disciple is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One…
And further, the noble disciple is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma…

And further, the noble disciple is endowed with verified confidence in the Saṅgha…

And further, the noble disciple is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones…

This is how a noble disciple dwells in heedlessness.

And that answer is absolutely to the point of the Nandiya's question about the heedful life of a noble disciples.
-
In the first case where "ariyasavaka" is translated as "a disciple of the noble ones" we have:
1) Nandiya with the right understanding of ariyasavakas as of someone who can be lacking the four factors of the stream-entry.
2) The Buddha who is instead of answering the question is not only making some unrelated remarks, but also answering the completely opposite question he was asked by Nandiya.

In the second case where "ariyasavaka" is translated as "a noble disciple" we have:
1) Nandiya with the wrong understanding of "ariyasavaka" as of someone who can be lacking the four factors of the stream-entry, and that's why asking illegitimate question.
2) The Buddha who is first correcting Nandiyas wrong understanding of an ariyasavaka, and after that directly answering the legitimate corrected version of the question he was asked by Nandiya.

So from the SN55.40 on account of translation of "ariyasavaka" we get:
1) either "ariyasvaka" is "a disciple of the noble ones", Nandiya with right understanding of "ariyasvaka", and the Buddha saying nonsense;
2) or "ariyasvaka" is "a noble disciple", Nandiya with wrong understanding of "ariyasvaka", and the Buddha is right on the topic.

[frank k]

...SN 55.40

Nandiya's question is just not very clear in the first place, so based on uncertainty you can go a number of different directions and try to convince yourself your assumption makes sense.

If you really want to prove ariya savaka is enlightened (minimum stream entry),
you have to find a sutta like MN 152
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn152/index.html

Or SN 47.4
where is makes clear distinctions between different types of ariya.
bhikkhū navā acirapabbajitā (new monk not long ordained)
arahant
sekha: traineee who is at least a stream enterer (asekha in other suttas refers to an arahant)

Both suttas, they never use the term ariya-savaka.
When they want to refer to someone who is at least stream entry, they say sekha, or ariya.


If you do a digital search for ariya savaka, when comparisons are being made, it's against ordinary worldlings, not against savaka/disciples who are not noble.

[Sasha_A]

If you really want to prove ariya savaka is enlightened (minimum stream entry)...

No, that is not my intention. Here I am analysing exclusively SN55.40 for the purpose of inferring the meaning of "ariyasavaka" from the content of that sutta. And I have already shown in two different ways that "ariyasavaka" in this sutta cannot have the meaning "a disciple of the noble ones" without reducing the meaning, both in general and in particular, and the logical structure of the sutta's narrative to absurdity.

Nandiya's question is just not very clear in the first place, so based on uncertainty you can go a number of different directions and try to convince yourself your assumption makes sense.

In the case of such a sudden loss of clarity of the meaning of the SN55.40 on the issue at hand, shouldn't you at least exclude this sutta from the list of proofs you have offered?

PS: It would also be great if you would not just limit your threads to a bare link to the blog posts, but include their content here as well. It would make it easier to comment on the material you offer for discussion.

[frank k]

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tened.html
SN 55.7, another sutta where ariya savaka is not noble (at first)

[Sasha_A]

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tened.html
SN 55.7, another sutta where ariya savaka is not noble (at first)

From the SN55.7:

And they (ariyasavakas) have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.

[Joe.c]

If the SAV (ariya savaka) is already an arahant, there's no point in making that reflection because they're already beyond that need for training.

Well by this logic, there is no meaning for arahant to practice 4 satipatthana for dwelling in bliss in present life as the sutta suggested in SN 47.4 and many more.

In fact those reflection is important to maintain samma samadhi in daily life where ariyasavaka is in contact with others (unbalanced puthujjana) in regular life environment.

Why would an ariyasavaka (even an arahant) not use the knowledge when they have fully developed the wisdom/knowledge? That is just silly.

In fact lot of sutta mentioned about reflection continuously (if not in samadhi) till end of body. Just search.

[frank k]

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tened.html
SN 55.7, another sutta where ariya savaka is not noble (at first)

From the SN55.7:

And they (ariyasavakas) have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.

The next part ("WHEN") supercedes it.
IF they purify their ethics, AND possess 4 factors of stream entry,
THEN they can declare themselves to be a stream enterer.

Left unsaid for the reader/listener to deduce for themselves, is
IF they don't purify their ethics AND they don't possess 4 factors,
THEN they can not be a stream enterer.

So an ariya savaka CAN be a stream enterer or NOT, depending on their actions.
An ariya must be at least a stream enterer already.

Read the whole sutta again carefully, look at the context.