SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by frank k »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:42 pm
frank wrote:If the SAV (ariya savaka) is already an arahant, there's no point in making that reflection because they're already beyond that need for training.
Well by this logic, there is no meaning for arahant to practice 4 satipatthana for dwelling in bliss in present life as the sutta suggested in SN 47.4 and many more.

In fact those reflection is important to maintain samma samadhi in daily life where ariyasavaka is in contact with others (unbalanced puthujjana) in regular life environment.

Why would an ariyasavaka (even an arahant) not use the knowledge when they have fully developed the wisdom/knowledge? That is just silly.

In fact lot of sutta mentioned about reflection continuously (if not in samadhi) till end of body. Just search.
I'm not talking to you anymore (on this topic) remember?
You're quoting me out of context.
Your accusations are invalid.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Sasha_A »

frank k wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:49 pm
Sasha_A wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:34 am
frank k wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:06 am http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tened.html
SN 55.7, another sutta where ariya savaka is not noble (at first)
From the SN55.7:
And they (ariyasavakas) have experiential confidence in the Buddha … the teaching … the Saṅgha … And they have the ethical conduct loved by the noble ones … leading to immersion.
The next part ("WHEN") supercedes it.
IF they purify their ethics, AND possess 4 factors of stream entry,
THEN they can declare themselves to be a stream enterer.
There is no 'when' in the sutta - there are no descriptions of gradual processes in time, only the present tense and only about what is already present here and now in the case of ariyasavaka.

Again, Ven. Thanissaros's translation):
Householders, I will teach you a Dhamma sequence that refers to oneself. Listen & pay close attention to it. I will speak.
...
There is the case where a ariyasavaka reflects thus:...
...
Reflecting in this way, he himself refrains from taking life, he gets others to refrain from taking life, and he speaks in praise of refraining from taking life. In this way, his bodily behavior is pure in three ways.

Further, he reflects thus:...
...
Reflecting in this way, he himself refrains from taking, by way of theft, what hasn’t been given, he gets others to refrain from taking, by way of theft, what hasn’t been given, and he speaks in praise of refraining from taking, by way of theft, what hasn’t been given.
In this way, his bodily behavior is pure in three ways.

Further, he reflects thus:
...
Reflecting in this way, he himself refrains from sexual misconduct, he gets others to refrain from sexual misconduct, and he speaks in praise of refraining from sexual misconduct. In this way, his bodily behavior is pure in three ways.

Further, he reflects thus:
...
Reflecting in this way, he himself refrains from telling lies, he gets others to refrain from telling lies, and he speaks in praise of refraining from telling lies. In this way, his verbal behavior is pure in three ways.

Further, he reflects thus:
...
Reflecting in this way, he himself refrains from divisive speech, he gets others to refrain from divisive speech, and he speaks in praise of refraining from divisive speech. In this way, his verbal behavior is pure in three ways.

Further, he reflects thus:
...
Reflecting in this way, he himself refrains from harsh speech, he gets others to refrain from harsh speech, and he speaks in praise of refraining from harsh speech. In this way, his verbal behavior is pure in three ways.

Further, he reflects thus:
...
Reflecting in this way, he refrains from idle chatter, gets others to refrain from idle chatter, and speaks in praise of refraining from idle chatter. In this way, his verbal behavior is pure in three ways.

He is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One:...
He is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma:...
He is endowed with verified confidence in the Saṅgha: ...
He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: ...

Now, householders, when an ariyasavaka is endowed with these seven good qualities and these four desirable states, then if he so desires, he himself may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended for me; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry ghosts is ended; planes of deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms are ended! I am a stream-winner, never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!
The sutta is not about training, the sutta is about how to know for yourself that you are "never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!"

And please look up the dictionary definition of "to promote" and "to demote". The Buddha cannot promote or demote someone to the status of an arya or an ordinary person, only to declare such an achievement, confirm or deny it. Sentences like these are absolutely bizarre:
frank k wrote:Here the SAV (ariya savaka) is getting promoted from just a disciple who practices the Buddha's Dharma, to a stream enterer who gets the guarantee of no more bad rebirths.
...
If SAV is less than an arahant, they're getting demoted to a lower station or a lateral move.
...
So as you expect, a noble one's disciple (who isn't themself yet an "ariya" noble stream enterer), gets promoted and confirmed as a stream enterer.
...
If she, as a "noble" disciple was already an ariya at a level beyond a stream enterer, an arahant for example, then she would be getting a demotion.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:52 pm I'm not talking to you anymore (on this topic) remember?
You're quoting me out of context.
Your accusations are invalid.
I’m not replying to you specifically. I just provide evidence for others to counter your narrow explanation of ariyasavaka.

As i said an arahant will not teach satipatthana to new comer /puthujjana before looking at other factors closely. That will be waste of time for them.

And to establish in to satipatthana, right view and perfected precepts are needed first. Many sutta said this.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by frank k »

Sasha_A wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:19 pm ...
thanissaro's quote:
Now, householders, when an ariyasavaka is endowed with these seven good qualities and these four desirable states, then if he so desires, he himself may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended for me; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry ghosts is ended; planes of deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms are ended! I am a stream-winner, never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!
There's a 'when' right there, if you'd turn off your confirmation bias filter.
If you want to nitpick how the time tense in every sutta works, you could make all kinds of suttas support all kinds of wrong ideas.
You have to actually read the whole sutta, consider the context, etc.
The suttas in oral tradition are written to be memorized, so necessarily they're often very terse, cryptic, and have strange ways of explaining things, for people used to the modern era of written prose.

It's not completely clear to me if you're just trolling or genuinely can't see that some of the suttas I pointed out are showing ariya savaka having potentially different outcomes (if, and when, conditional destinations) within the same sutta.

I'm done talking to you too.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by SDC »

frank k wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:42 am
It's not completely clear to me if you're just trolling or genuinely can't see that some of the suttas I pointed out are showing ariya savaka having potentially different outcomes (if, and when, conditional destinations) within the same sutta.

I'm done talking to you too.
I think @Sasha_A has argued a very solid position here.

You have your own unique way of analyzing suttas, Frank, not to mention your mind is already made up prior to presenting your position, so it should be expected that you’re going to encounter resistance.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Lal »

"Yato kho, gahapati, ariyasāvakassa imāni pañca bhayāni verāni vūpasantāni honti, imehi ca catūhi sotāpattiyaṅgehi samannāgato hoti, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṁ byākareyya:
khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto; sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti
.

Sutta Central translation (correct):
"When a noble disciple has quelled these five dangers and threats, and has these four factors of stream-entry, they may, if they wish, declare of themselves:
I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’”

https://suttacentral.net/an9.27/en/suja ... =latin#2.1
Last edited by Lal on Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Joe.c »

Buddha means:
-the status of ariyasavaka achieved when one has the 4 factors. This is akaliko.

Frank logic:
- one is an ariyasavaka first then have 4 factors ( ie one lead to another), then become ariya. This become not akaliko.

Ariyasavaka is always at least a stream enterer. Puthujjana is still outsider.

This teaching is not about logic unfortunately. It is ending of dukkha.

Anyway, good luck.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:15 pm If you were to find some suttas proving ariya savaka must be at least stream enterer,
some excerpts,
https://suttacentral.net/sn20.11/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:A certain person here who claims to be a follower of the Sakyan son would be lucky to experience even such an incarnation.
Sādhu khvassa, bhikkhave, yaṁ idhekacco sakyaputtiyapaṭiñño evarūpampi attabhāvapaṭilābhaṁ paṭisaṁvediyetha.
hmm
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.3/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Sir, may the Buddha please teach me Dhamma in brief. When I’ve heard it, I’ll live alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute.”
“This is exactly how some foolish people ask me for something. But when the teaching has been explained they think only of following me around.”
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Sasha_A »

frank k wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:42 am thanissaro's quote:
Now, householders, when an ariyasavaka is endowed with these seven good qualities and these four desirable states, then if he so desires, he himself may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended for me; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry ghosts is ended; planes of deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms are ended! I am a stream-winner, never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!
There's a 'when' right there, if you'd turn off your confirmation bias filter.
Yes, there is a 'when' in the text. But in what part of the text is this 'when' found and what part of the text is this 'when' related to? Because it is in which part of the text this "when" is found, and to which part it is referring, that its meaning will depend.

This sutta essentially has five parts:
1) Introduction
2) Question
3) Explanation
4) The resulting answer to the question
5) Conclusion

If you exclude the supporting parts of the text and leave the essence of the text in the form of the original question and the resulting answer, you get the following text:

2) Quesion:
Master Gotama, we have wishes, desires, & aims like these: May we live at home crowded with children! May we experience Kāsi sandalwood! May we wear garlands, scents, & cosmetics! May we enjoy gold & silver! And with the breakup of the body, after death, may we reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world! May Master Gotama teach the Dhamma to us who have wishes, desires, & aims like these, so that we may live at home crowded with children, we may experience Kāsi sandalwood, we may wear garlands, scents, & cosmetics, we may enjoy gold & silver, and with the breakup of the body, after death, we may reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world!
4) The resulting answer to the question:
Now, householders, when an ariyasavaka is endowed with these seven good qualities and these four desirable states, then if he so desires, he himself may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended for me; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry ghosts is ended; planes of deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms are ended! I am a stream-winner, never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!’
Unlike the third part of the text with explanations, in the fourth part the subject of the text is not ariyasavakas and their qualities, but the original question itself. The "when" we are dealing with refers not to the ariyasavaka but to the essence of the original question.

So what is the essence of the lay people's question to the Buddha? What exactly are they asking him to explain? They are asking for an example of how one can live a fulfilling worldly life and still not be reborn in the lower worlds. And the Buddha gives them the example of a person who can live a fulfilling worldly life and still be free from rebirth in the lower worlds - an ariyasavaka, "endowed with these seven good qualities and these four desirable states".

Thus the Buddha's full answer to the layman's question would be as follows:
Now, householders, this is when such layman is an ariyasavaka, endowed with these seven good qualities and these four desirable states, then if he so desires, he himself may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended for me; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry ghosts is ended; planes of deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms are ended! I am a stream-winner, never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!’

This is not a bias, this is not a nitpicking, this is not a trolling, this is not about ideas - this is only about reading comprehension skills:
Reading comprehension is the ability to process written text, understand its meaning, and to integrate with what the reader already knows.[1][2][3][4] Comprehension specifically is a "creative, multifaceted process" dependent upon four language skills: phonology, syntax, semantics, and pragmatics.[5]

Some of the fundamental skills required in efficient reading comprehension are the ability to:

- know the meaning of words,
- understand the meaning of a word from a discourse context,
- follow the organization of a passage and to identify antecedents and references in it,
- draw inferences from a passage about its contents,
- identify the main thought of a passage,
- ask questions about the text,
- answer questions asked in a passage,
- visualize the text,
- recall prior knowledge connected to text,
- recognize confusion or attention problems,
- recognize the literary devices or propositional structures used in a passage and determine its tone,
- understand the situational mood (agents, objects, temporal and spatial reference points, casual and intentional inflections, etc.) conveyed for assertions, questioning, commanding, refraining, etc., and
- determine the writer's purpose, intent, and point of view, and draw inferences about the writer (discourse-semantics).[6][7][8]
It is impossible to analyse suttas, or any text for that matter, without first analysing the text lexically. The examples of parsing I have given here should in fact be available to any high school student purely on the basis of knowledge of syntax and semantics of language and the ability to distinguish the subject and the logical structure of the narrative.

By the way, getting back to bias, did you notice that in none of my posts did I infer the meaning of "ariyasavaka" - is it "disciple of the noble" or "noble disciple"? - This is because from the very beginning, the subject of my posts here was not the meaning of "ariyasawaka", but reading comprehension skills.
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Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Sasha_A »

frank k wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:42 amIf you want to nitpick how the time tense in every sutta works, you could make all kinds of suttas support all kinds of wrong idea
Equating the need to consider the basic grammar of a language with nitpicking is a death sentence to the reputation of any interpreter of the meaning of a text, much less a translator.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by frank k »

Sasha_A wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:39 am ...
It is impossible to analyse suttas, or any text for that matter, without first analysing the text lexically. The examples of parsing I have given here should in fact be available to any high school student purely on the basis of knowledge of syntax and semantics of language and the ability to distinguish the subject and the logical structure of the narrative.

By the way, getting back to bias, did you notice that in none of my posts did I infer the meaning of "ariyasavaka" - is it "disciple of the noble" or "noble disciple"? - This is because from the very beginning, the subject of my posts here was not the meaning of "ariyasawaka", but reading comprehension skills.
If you're not trying to discern whether ariya savaka must be an ariya, or not, then what exactly are you doing?
Looks like trolling to me.
You don't read enough suttas, and you don't understand how an oral tradition works (how they compose terse matrix fomulaic style instructions that don't always respond to your basic semantics, grammar, etc.).

Show me how your awesome "reading comprehension skills" works when you see how in SN 56.11, in the twelve permutations, one is told to abandon the second noble truth, rather than craving, the cause of suffering that the second noble truth is referring to.
How well will your grammar and lexical skills serve you there?
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by frank k »

the term ariya savaka doesn't even appear in those suttas. exactly what you think it proves?
auto wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:15 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:15 pm If you were to find some suttas proving ariya savaka must be at least stream enterer,
some excerpts,
https://suttacentral.net/sn20.11/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:A certain person here who claims to be a follower of the Sakyan son would be lucky to experience even such an incarnation.
Sādhu khvassa, bhikkhave, yaṁ idhekacco sakyaputtiyapaṭiñño evarūpampi attabhāvapaṭilābhaṁ paṭisaṁvediyetha.
hmm
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.3/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Sir, may the Buddha please teach me Dhamma in brief. When I’ve heard it, I’ll live alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute.”
“This is exactly how some foolish people ask me for something. But when the teaching has been explained they think only of following me around.”
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by frank k »

Lal wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:15 pm "Yato kho, gahapati, ariyasāvakassa imāni pañca bhayāni verāni vūpasantāni honti, imehi ca catūhi sotāpattiyaṅgehi samannāgato hoti, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṁ byākareyya:
khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto; sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti
.

Sutta Central translation (correct):
"When a noble disciple has quelled these five dangers and threats, and has these four factors of stream-entry, they may, if they wish, declare of themselves:
I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’”

https://suttacentral.net/an9.27/en/suja ... =latin#2.1
1. WHEN a disciple ... has 4 factors, THEN they can declare themselves a stream enterer.
2. WHEN a disciple DOES NOT have *** and those 4 factors, THEN they can NOT declare themselves a stream enterer.

But if you wrongly assume the disciple has ariya status,
then the 2nd clause fails. (when a noble disciple who is already a stream enterer... arahant, does not have 4 factors, they can not declare themselves to be a stream enterer).

AN 9.27 has the same logical flaws as previously discussed suttas.
In short, both translations are coherent.
But one of them is a wrong interpretation, because there are suttas where it fails. Bodhi and Sujato have already admitted that.
Thanissaro seems to be the only one I'm aware of translating ariya savaka correctly.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by frank k »

Sasha_A wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:15 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:42 amIf you want to nitpick how the time tense in every sutta works, you could make all kinds of suttas support all kinds of wrong idea
Equating the need to consider the basic grammar of a language with nitpicking is a death sentence to the reputation of any interpreter of the meaning of a text, much less a translator.
Here's another example.
samma sati, the vineyya loke grammatically has two possibilites.
1. One has alreadying abandoned 5 hindrances,
2. (optatitive) One should abandon 5 hindrances.

Of course one should be disciplined and rigorous in parsing the passages, but what I mean about 'nitpicking' is when spending time and energy beyond what's justified for a situation with some uncertainty.
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Re: SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

Post by Lal »

frank k wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:41 pm
Lal wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:15 pm "Yato kho, gahapati, ariyasāvakassa imāni pañca bhayāni verāni vūpasantāni honti, imehi ca catūhi sotāpattiyaṅgehi samannāgato hoti, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṁ byākareyya:
khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto; sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti
.

Sutta Central translation (correct):
"When a noble disciple has quelled these five dangers and threats, and has these four factors of stream-entry, they may, if they wish, declare of themselves:
I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’”

https://suttacentral.net/an9.27/en/suja ... =latin#2.1
1. WHEN a disciple ... has 4 factors, THEN they can declare themselves a stream enterer.
2. WHEN a disciple DOES NOT have *** and those 4 factors, THEN they can NOT declare themselves a stream enterer.

But if you wrongly assume the disciple has ariya status,
Here is the critical point. There are only TWO types of people.
1. "assutavā puthujjano" = Those who have not heard AND grasped the Buddha Dhamma (Paticca Samuppada)
2. "sutavā ariyasāvako" = Those who have heard AND grasped the Buddha Dhamma (Paticca Samuppada) to some extent (corresponding to magga phala they have).

Therefore, BY DEFINITION, ariyasāvako is a "sutavā ariyasāvako."
- Without hearing AND grasping Buddha Dhamma, a person is a "assutavā puthujjano."

See the description of the two categories in the "Assutavā Sutta (SN 12.61)."

"sutavā ariyasāvako" described at: https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/suj ... =latin#5.1
- Description of the "assutavā puthujjano" starts at marker 1.3.
- Only those two categories. Not even a third category.

P.S. A bhikkhu is an assutavā puthujjano unless at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage is attained.
- For example, Devadatta was an assutavā puthujjano, even though he was a bhikkhu to the moment of death.
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