SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)

[frank k]

SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... avaka.html

[Joe.c]

Look at the reply from Buddha in SN 55.40. Don’t put your own spin into the sutta.

Also look at MN 81, a once returner also has the factor of stream enterer. The factors also can be 7 depending upon how one look at it at different angle. see MN 48

Anyway look at more sutta.

All ariya will be an ariyasavaka when there is a samma sambuddha. Because they hear the true dhamma from other ariya.

Even in recollection of sangha, you will find savaka sangha and there 8 types.

Supati-panno Bhagavato sâvaka sangho

2. a (ariya savaka) once returner who possesses these 4 factors is a stream enterer.

Above is a wrong logic.

Once returner also has 4 factors of a stream enterer, but they also has more due to other faculties development/wisdom.

[frank k]

I've updated the article, see comments and promotion and demotion

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[Joe.c]

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You are missing the point Frank.

Do you know Why Buddha taught mirror of dhamma or 4 factor of stream enterer?

when ananda come and ask Buddha where the disciples who have passed away recently in Sn 55.8-sn 55.10?

Even there is an ariyasavaka who passed away as an arahant.

So Ānanda, I will teach you the explanation of the Dhamma called ‘the mirror of the teaching’.

A noble disciple who has this may declare of themselves: ‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’

Because this is the bare minimum of ariyasavaka.

That is having the 4 factors of entering the stream.

One who has entered the stream will be guaranteed awakening. They will never go to lower realms EVER. Even if they negligent, they will have the stream carry them to achieve Nibbana.

An ariyasavaka will use the dhamma mirror to check themselves personally whether they have these 4 factors or not.

If not, then they know they are indeed only a puthujjana or bahira (outsider).

If an ariyasavaka has these 4 factors, then they know they are at least a stream enterer. Then, they can proceed to higher developments or checking etc, up to an arahant.

In Buddha teaching, it is not about logic, it is about development and follow the exact instructions.

4 factors of stream enterer is the FIRST check whether one has entered the stream or not.

Even if you think you are an arahant, you will do this check first.

Even an arahant, Ven. MahaKaccana still considered An extinguished Buddha as the teacher.

...Great king, don’t go for refuge to me. You should go for refuge to that same Blessed One to whom I have gone for refuge.”

“But where is that Blessed One at present, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha?”

“Great king, the Buddha has already become fully extinguished.”

“Master Kaccāna, if I heard that the Buddha was within ten leagues, or twenty, or even up to a hundred leagues away, I’d go a hundred leagues to see him. But since the Buddha has become fully extinguished, I go for refuge to that fully extinguished Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha. From this day forth, may Master Kaccāna remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

So if you have other monk as the teacher, be very careful indeed.

[frank k]

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You are missing the point Frank.
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You're completely missing the point Joe.
They're 4 factors of STREAM ENTRY (sota panna), not 4 factors of aryia-savaka (DISCIPLE of the noble ones).
Even Sujato, Bodhi, acknowledge that ariya-savaka is not an enlightened noble disciple in every instance of their translation, yet they continue with tha t bad translation causing me to deal with people like you wasting my time because you trust their bad translation and think 'ariya savaka' means 'enlightened' noble disciple.

I don't know why you care so much about this issue. I'm not in any way shape or form trying to lower the standards of a qualification for sota-patti.
I'm simply pointing out, as Thanissaro has translated correctly all along, that ariya savaka is not necessarily a stream enterer, and should not be translated that way.

I'm appreciative of you taking the time to quote passages that you think prove otherwise.
If you find any more, then feel free to post.
But stop wasting my time arguing something that even the translators of the bad translalion you belive have already acknowledged being incorrect.

[Joe.c]

Problem is you are creating a grey area. In Buddha teaching, there is no grey area.

Either you are in or you are out.

[Sasha_A]

SN 55.40, SN 55.39 proof that ariya-savaka is a disciple of noble ones, not a 'noble disciple' (with ariya status)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... avaka.html

Here:
viewtopic.php?p=718587#p718587

[Joe.c]

Well according to Frank's logic, SN 55.3 can be said by Buddha as well. Because Buddha taught a non returner about 4 factor of stream enterer again before his death.

On SN 55.3, a Dying non returner also said to have 4 factor of entering the stream by himself and Buddha re-taught or remind him about this again.

Sir, these four factors of stream-entry that were taught by the Buddha are found in me, and I exhibit them.

“In that case, Dīghāvu, grounded on these four factors of stream-entry you should further develop these six things that play a part in realization.

You should dwell observing the impermanence of all conditions, perceiving suffering in impermanence, perceiving not-self in suffering, perceiving giving up, perceiving fading away, and perceiving cessation.
...

“Mendicants, the lay follower Dīghāvu was astute. He practiced in line with the teachings, and did not trouble me about the teachings.

With the ending of the five lower fetters, he’s been reborn spontaneously, and will become extinguished there, not liable to return from that world.”

So,
Ariyasavaka=
- Has 4 things (so catūhi dhammehi) / has 4 factors of entering the stream (cattāri sotāpattiyaṅgāni)
- astute (pandito)
- Learned -> sutavā ariyasāvako (see MN 109)
- who has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons.

Puthujjana=
- doesn't have 4 things or 4 factors of entering the stream.
- not astute
- unlearned -> assutavā puthujjano
- who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons.

Btw,
There will NEVER be asutava ariyasavaka, or ariyasavaka with partial factor of stream enterers. There is no Ariyasavaka that never associates with other ariya. There is no Ariyasavaka that never hear true dhamma directly from other ariya.

These above categories are always STILL puthujjana in Buddha's teaching. And there are many puthujjana indeed nowadays.

[frank k]

Well according to Frank's logic, SN 55.3 can be said by Buddha as well. Because Buddha taught a non returner about 4 factor of stream enterer again before his death.
...

Just because the Buddha has psychic powers doesn't mean he always uses them.
Read the whole sutta carefully.
D = Digha the dying lay person.
B = Buddha

First B tells D to train the 4 factors.
D responds he already has them.
Then B says in that case, you should develop further seeing impermanence, etc.
D responds again he's already been doing that and accomplished in that.

“Tasmātiha tvaṃ, dīghāvu, imesu catūsu sotāpattiyaṅgesu patiṭṭhāya cha vijjābhāgiye dhamme uttari bhāveyyāsi.
“In that case, Dīghāvu, grounded on these four factors of stream-entry you should further develop these six things that play a part in realization.
Idha tvaṃ, dīghāvu, sabbasaṅkhāresu aniccānupassī viharāhi, anicce dukkhasaññī, dukkhe anattasaññī pahānasaññī virāgasaññī nirodhasaññīti.
You should meditate observing the impermanence of all conditions, perceiving suffering in impermanence, perceiving not-self in suffering, perceiving giving up, perceiving fading away, and perceiving cessation.

Conclusion: there's nothing in SN 55.3 that supports your claim that ariya savaka must be at least a stream enterer.
Keep trying, if you enjoy wasting your time like that.
I'm starting to keep track of suttas I find where it's complete absurd where ariya savaka MUST be at least a stream enterer.
Here's one:
Iti 82
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -gods.html

It implies that anyone who ordains, is already a stream enterer (it's talking about newly ordained ariya savakas).
Otherwise, the Devas are prejudiced.
They only cheer if the new ordainee is already at least a stream enterer.
Now we know all new ordainees can't be stream enterers. Some monks, like Devadatta, went to hell. Must be other monastics that also were reborn in lower realms.

Over the years, I've come across a number of passages where it's weird, absurd, or just impossible like Iti 82 where ariya savaka must be at least stream enterer.

If you guys can think of some off hand, post it.
It's time to put a stop to this nonsense and put some pressure on Bodhi and Sujato to change their transalations on that term 'ariya savaka.'

[Joe.c]

Well. I just say good luck to you.

But ariyasavaka needs to see and know other ariya personally. Otherwise they are not an ariyasavaka. Also, Ariyasavaka will always be at least a stream enterer.

Otherwise, one is still puthujjana whatever you want to learn or study from by yourself or other guru. Puthujjana will never see an ariya, even if there is one near him/her.

Just because the Buddha has psychic powers doesn't mean he always uses them.

You don’t understand yet. Buddha can see one is dying just by observing the physical body, no need any psychic power. Actually a non returner will know clearly when he is about to die. That is why he ask to see Buddha. Buddha already know when he goes to see the non returner.

Buddha just repeat the dhamma again to remind about the teaching and maintain the mind in samadhi. Also a possibility for a lay person to let go all and becoming an arahant right before death. But still a non return status is always there.

Anyway just remember to invite a good person if you are dying (provided your vipaka is supporting it). If he know how to guide, at least a heaven is better than ghost realm.

[Joe.c]

Iti 82
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -gods.html

Lol... please don't equate the period where an ariyasavaka who shaves their head with current monk situation.

It is incomparable.

Those past monks who have entered the stream and let go everything's to become a non returner or an arahant indeed only a stream enterer at the very least.

That is why when a stream enterer shaves his head that means he is going to fight with Mara for real. Because one wants to let go the Sensual Realm for good, whether die or alive.

Not like current monk situation where they become indulgent with big temple or donation etc. Even though they are just puthujjana. Anyway, that is how i have understood.

Please don't kid yourself that a puthujjana can become an arahant without becoming stream enterer first. That is not possible. Even the best student Ven. Maha Moggallana took 7 days with nonstop staying in samadhi with Buddha watching on him.

In anyway Good luck like i said.

[frank k]

Iti 82
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -gods.html

Lol... please don't equate the period where an ariyasavaka who shaves their head with current monk situation.

It is incomparable.
...

That sutta has nothing to do with monks from Buddha's time versus monks of today.
Are you seriously not seeing the logic, or just trying to desperately throw some red herrings into the discussion?
It's about plugging in 'at least stream enterer' for 'ariya-savaka' just makes no sense at all in that sutta.
It seems like you're just clinging to a losing view, showing attachment to wrong views.
If you were to find some suttas proving ariya savaka must be at least stream enterer,
then I'd change my mind and admit my view was incorrect.
That's what it looks like when you don't stubbornly cling to wrong views.

[Sasha_A]

Here's one:
Iti 82
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -gods.html

It implies that anyone who ordains, is already a stream enterer (it's talking about newly ordained ariya savakas).

This is your own translation from the link above (with ariyasāvako left without translation):

This was said by the Buddha, the Perfected One: that is what I heard.
“monks, these three divine sounds are issued by the gods from time to time.
Which three?
When a ariyasāvako shaves off their hair and beard, dresses in ocher robes, and goes forth from the home life into homelessness,
At that time the gods cry out [with joy]:
‘This ariyasāvako made up his mind and declared war on Māra [the Evil one]!’
This is the first occasion a divine sound is issued by the gods.
...

Please indicate a fragment from the sutta where you see that the sutta is talking about "any one who ordains" and not only about ordination of ariyasāvaka?

[Joe.c]

That sutta has nothing to do with monks from Buddha's time versus monks of today.
Are you seriously not seeing the logic, or just trying to desperately throw some red herrings into the discussion?
It's about plugging in 'at least stream enterer' for 'ariya-savaka' just makes no sense at all in that sutta.
It seems like you're just clinging to a losing view, showing attachment to wrong views.
If you were to find some suttas proving ariya savaka must be at least stream enterer,
then I'd change my mind and admit my view was incorrect.
That's what it looks like when you don't stubbornly cling to wrong views.

No, you did cling to your view that ariyasavaka is not at least stream enterer. And try to compare it with nowadays situation which clearly show an impure Sangha.

That sutta indeed show how the earlier ariyasavaka (at least stream enterer) shave their head to fight the battle with Mara.

Now that I recall this below Sutta on MN 14 as well.

I will not lose this battle because I know and see. While I can confirm now that you are still blind and try to use your own logic and spin.

For if you had given up that quality you would not still be living at home and enjoying sensual pleasures.
So ca hi te, mahānāma, dhammo ajjhattaṁ pahīno abhavissa, na tvaṁ agāraṁ ajjhāvaseyyāsi, na kāme paribhuñjeyyāsi.

But because you haven’t given up that quality you are still living at home and enjoying sensual pleasures.
Yasmā ca kho te, mahānāma, so eva dhammo ajjhattaṁ appahīno tasmā tvaṁ agāraṁ ajjhāvasasi, kāme paribhuñjasi.

Sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks.
‘Appassādā kāmā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā, ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti

Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen this with right wisdom, so long as they don’t achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that,
iti cepi, mahānāma, ariyasāvakassa yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṁ hoti, so ca aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi pītisukhaṁ nādhigacchati, aññaṁ vā tato santataraṁ;

they might still return to sensual pleasures.

But when they do achieve that rapture and bliss, or something more peaceful than that,
Yato ca kho, mahānāma, ariyasāvakassa ‘appassādā kāmā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā, ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti—evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṁ hoti, so ca aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi pītisukhaṁ adhigacchati aññaṁ vā tato santataraṁ;

they will not return to sensual pleasures.

or MN 146:

Because we have already truly seen this with right wisdom:
“Pubbeva no etaṁ, bhante, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṁ:

‘So these six classes of consciousness are impermanent.’”
‘itipime cha viññāṇakāyā aniccā’”ti.


“Good, good, sisters!
“Sādhu sādhu, bhaginiyo.

That’s how it is for a noble disciple who truly sees with right wisdom.
Evañhetaṁ, bhaginiyo, hoti ariyasāvakassa yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato.

...

Even the last of these five hundred nuns is a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”

From above sutta, there is no way for a puthujjana to have clearly seen this with right wisdom.

Also, please show assutavā Ariyasavaka in text. Because I know you can't.

[Joe.c]

Look like I miss this.

Otherwise, the Devas are prejudiced.
They only cheer if the new ordainee is already at least a stream enterer.
Now we know all new ordainees can't be stream enterers.

This Sutta ITI 82 is not prejudiced. An Ariya Deva can know and see one who is also ariyasavaka in human realm, because an Ariya will see other Ariya as well. This sutta clearly just show an ariyasavaka (at least stream enterer) is ready to take the fight with MARA. When one try to attain samadhi, they are fighting with Mara for real.
....

Some monks, like Devadatta, went to hell. Must be other monastics that also were reborn in lower realms.

Where did any Sutta said Devadatta is an Ariyasavaka? Ariyasavaka needs to see and know as well. Devadatta is just a puthujjana.

ariyasāvakassa yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato
a noble disciple who truly sees with right wisdom.

...

Over the years, I've come across a number of passages where it's weird, absurd, or just impossible like Iti 82 where ariya savaka must be at least stream enterer.

Don't mix some sutta with others. They can be confusing. You need to use it in the same context. Also there is Sutta that is expounded early after Buddha awakening. Most of people who join the sangha in the early years join because their intention is pure and want be freed and having heard the true dhamma from other ariya. See Sariputta, Mahāmoggallāna, etc.

There is Sutta that is late/near end of Buddha life.

But, when the Sangha grow Big, there is just not enough Arahant with Psychic power to see and know all newly ordain intention when they join the Sangha. This is what creating impure sangha in the later years.

You can see it in AN 8.20, Buddha refused to recite the Pātimokkha to the bhikkhus due to impure sangha.

“This assembly, Ānanda, is impure.”
...
A third time the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said to that person: “Get up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. You cannot live in communion with the bhikkhus.” A third time that person remained silent.

Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna grabbed that person by the arm, evicted him through the outer gatehouse, and bolted the door. Then he returned to the Blessed One and said to him: “I have evicted that person, Bhante. The assembly is pure. Let the Blessed One recite the Pātimokkha to the bhikkhus.”

“It’s astounding and amazing, Moggallāna, how that hollow man waited until he was grabbed by the arm.” Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: “Now, bhikkhus, you yourselves should conduct the uposatha and recite the Pātimokkha. From today onward, I will no longer do so. It is impossible and inconceivable that the Tathāgata could conduct the uposatha and recite the Pātimokkha in an impure assembly.