Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

Hi all,

I am an Asian living in the west, my home country claims to be Buddhist though it's more ritual than true practice.

The reason I wanted to find peace in meditation:
- My mind has a constantly running process to think on some big problems of my life, at the background, while I go about daily activities of my life. This "parallel thinking process" has started since at least 20 years.
- Doctors say I have severe and long standing depression for 5-10-15 years
- I find stress even while taking a shower, or riding a bike. Even if I have a good body built and was able to do Karate in the past.
- Only during meditation can I find a restful mind.
- I was unable to work during to inability to concentrate for more then some minutes.


The Goenka 10-day course ending 20 days ago has made a profound impact on me:

- I think I found the answer to the two most profound questions that have been haunting me the last 20 years. Even if it is only on the intellectual part and not yet the experiencing part, it's already new
- I cried 2 times during that course.
- I was so near to getting suicide one night during the course. Though the thought of "don't know how long I could live miserably like this" has been present very frequently in the past, it was only during that course, after I decided to visit my spine, that the thought was so clear. That night one long standing problem in my life popped up, I walked out of my dorm because of the inability to sleep. When I looked at the top of a tree, suddenly the thought of "let's do it" appeared so clearly. Luckily I burst in crying, and some decisions later have pulled me out of doing it.


Now upon returning home, I do 2 x 60 minutes Vipassane daily. The problem is, I find it harder to focus on sensations.
- During the course, it was already hard for me to find sensations. I was mainly switching between feeling sleepy, or my mind was agitated. At day 4 I found a tingling like insect crawling on my upper lip (below the nose). Then the remaining day it was so hard to have that "insect crawling" on other parts of the body. Feeling the skin touching the clothes was easy, but feeling the skin touching the atmosphere was so difficult, unless the atmosphere was cold. One time I decided to play: to visit my spine, then I was able to find the "insect" on my 2 hands. This sensation I could not repeat afterwards.
- During the course, around day 6 I could "hear insect, together with some beats (probably at the same frequency of heart beat) in my ear". And nothing more.
- Now at home, I don't find any new parts of the skin that have sensations. Although I could still feel the "insect crawling" on my upper lip (below the nostrils), or "hearing the insect in my ear", but nothing more.
- I've read also a Vipassana tradition in another country, where we should focus on feeling their stomach going in and out during breathing, and we should do notation (with our mind) on any change: "thinking", "itching", "wanting to change posture", "thinking again", .... The first session was wonderful: I felt happy because my mind was at peace (without much thinking). But this technique can only "entertain" me for 3 sitting sessions, then my mind was agitated again. And I needed to come back to the technique taught during the 10-day course: "scanning body parts together with feeling breathing in the nostrils".


Has anyone facing (some of) the same problems ?
Last edited by AsianInTheWest on Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the 10-day course

Post by Sam Vara »

Hello, AsianInTheWest, ans welcome to Dhamma Wheel. :anjali:

Beyond saying that your reasons for wanting to find peace in meditation are very common and very understandable, I would suggest that you ask specific questions like these to the teachers who taught you this particular technique. Is this a Vipassana course in the Goenka tradition that you are referring to? That's what it sounds like. Have they given you a password to a website that you can consult? Are there other practitioners you can consult? If it is Goenka tradition, I found that the lack of practical support between retreats was a big problem - there was nobody to consult on a daily basis, despite lots of advice when you are actually on the course.

There are I believe a few regular Vipassana practitioners from various traditions who post here, so maybe they will be able to help out.

You also mentioned thoughts of suicide which occurred to you during the course. If these persist, or recur, please seek help from a mental health professional - there could be an underlying issue here which needs sorting out.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the 10-day course

Post by Goofaholix »

AsianInTheWest wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:24 pm Has anyone facing (some of) the same problems ?
This is all very normal, the mind will be less sensitive and scattered off retreat compared with when you're on retreat. It takes time and perseverance and if you feel doing vipassana isn't working then just do anapana, it doesn't matter if that's all you do for the time being when off retreat as you will still be training your mind.

I agree that it would be good to contact your teachers if you can.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

Thank you all,
yes Goenka tradition was my first ever Vipassana 10-day course.

Now at home, I have read, from texts of my country (Vietnam), the Mahasi tradition.
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

So I've spent some time reading several pages and articles describing the original Satipatthana Sutta of The Blessed One, and started testing the technique described there.

I understand The Blessed One said: "Observe and recognize everything being present during the meditation session", and I do it by:
- Noting the bodily sensation: "I feel itchy", "I feel pain", "I want to change position because of this pain". This is normal, like what Thich Nhat Hanh taught.
- Noting my thoughts: "My jealousy causes this thought about this person", "I was a mean person (in that situation and that thought now comes to my mind)", "This situation worries me and I have this thought everyday", "I am feeling proud (in this situation, and the thought about that situation comes)". This is what I understand from what The Blessed One taught.

And I fall asleep during meditation (still sitting), but I WAKE UP FEELING FRESH, and this freshness is quite new to me.

During Goenka-based 10-day course, I did sleep shortly and suddenly wake up quickly knowing that I have ONLY STARTED sleeping. Also during Goenka-based 10-day course, I was awaree of my sleeping almost immediately, when my mind start telling some weird sentences that describe a completely different situation from the mediation setting.

The last 15 years, I've hardly felt fresh after sleeping. My constant stress and sleep apnea make the sleep quality quite low.

Ah, by the way, I did not try to contact my Goenka-based teacher yet, he probably doesn't like the fact that I read The Blessed One's method.
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by santa100 »

AsianInTheWest wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:32 pm I understand The Blessed One said: "Observe and recognize everything being present during the meditation session", and I do it by:
- Noting the bodily sensation: "I feel itchy", "I feel pain", "I want to change position because of this pain". This is normal, like what Thich Nhat Hanh taught.
- Noting my thoughts: "My jealousy causes this thought about this person", "I was a mean person (in that situation and that thought now comes to my mind)", "This situation worries me and I have this thought everyday", "I am feeling proud (in this situation, and the thought about that situation comes)". This is what I understand from what The Blessed One taught.
Try to remove all "I", "mine", "myself" notions, for example, instead of "I feel itchy", it's just: "there's itchiness"; instead of "I feel pain", it's just: "there is painful sensation", etc..
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

AsianInTheWest wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:32 pmAh, by the way, I did not try to contact my Goenka-based teacher yet, he probably doesn't like the fact that I read The Blessed One's method.
This is what puts me off the Goenka method, and makes me hesitate when recommending retreats.

I started practising intensive meditation with other teachers of the U Ba Khin tradition (Mr John Coleman and Mrs Ruth Denissen). I also did a course with Sayādaw U Rewata Dhamma who was a friend of Goenka. He declined an invitation to become an official teacher of the tradition because he could not commit to not teaching other meditation methods. Different methods suit different people, and the same person may benefit from using different techniques at different times, depending on their current circumstances or mental state.

Before ordaining, I travelled to India, and attended a course with Goenka. My aim was to see if I could become a monk in that tradition. They had no monastic group, so I looked elsewhere.

Some time after I returned to the UK, I ordained and attended a 30 day retreat led by my preceptor, Ven. Mahāsi Sayādaw. Since then, I have mostly practised and taught the Mahāsi method, which I find the most widely beneficial to all kinds of individuals. My preceptor had a thorough knowledge of the Tipiṭaka and its Commentaries, and was a specialist in the Visuddhimagga. He was chosen from all the learned monks of Burma to take the role of Chief Questioner at the Sixth Buddhist Council held in Rangoon, from 1955-1956, when the texts and commentaries were edited.

His method is based on Kāyānupassanā Dhātumanasikārapabbaṃ - Body Contemplation: Attention to the Elements Section. Meditators are told to observe the abdominal movements in sitting meditation, and to contemplate feelings, thoughts, and mental states, which are the other three foundations of mindfulness. It is not mindfulness of breathing.

I compare the Goenka method to a two-wheel drive car, because it emphasises mindfulness of breathing (kāya) and mindfulness of feelings (vedanā). It is fine on a retreat, just as a two-wheel drive car is fine on a smooth road in normal weather conditions.

The Mahāsi method is like a four-wheel drive car, because it teaches all four foundations of mindfulness. It emphasises body contemplation in the beginner's stage, but soon widens to include the other three: contemplation of feelings, thoughts, and mental states. It is like a four-wheel drive car, which is good on smooth roads in fine weather, but also robust and powerful on dirt tracks, or in bad weather conditions.

If a beginner practises the method properly for a month or more in retreat conditions, they should develop the skills to maintain mindfulness in worldly life, and even when going through stormy, emotional periods.

Others may prefer different teachers and techniques, but I have no hesitation in recommending the Mahāsi method because I know that it is thoroughly grounded in the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta. Meditators are discouraged from reading during a retreat, but afterwards they can, indeed should, study and question what the Buddha actually taught. They are free to attend Goenka style retreats, U Ba Khin retreats, Pa-auk Sayādaw retreats, or even to stay with the English Forest Saṅgha :stirthepot: as long as they continue to follow their teacher's instructions when practising the Mahāsi meditation method. They should practise loving-kindness, recollection of the Buddha, reflection on repulsiveness, or recollection of death should the need arise.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Red Belly
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun May 23, 2021 2:07 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by Red Belly »

A hugely helpful post, Bhante, thank you. As someone who has only heard the name of Mahasi Sayadaw, but has never read him, this is most inspiring. It has also got my fingers twitching to start going through my copy of the Visudhimagga.
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:02 am [
His method is based on Kāyānupassanā Dhātumanasikārapabbaṃ - Body Contemplation: Attention to the Elements Section. Meditators are told to observe the abdominal movements in sitting meditation, and to contemplate feelings, thoughts, and mental states, which are the other three foundations of mindfulness.
It is an honor to have someone so experienced in meditation answers me. I will come back with more questions regarding your post.

May I ask the following
- contemplate feelings: do you mean sensations as the Goenka method ?
- contemplate thoughts: is noting "there was a thought about XYZ, now come back to my abdominal movements" enough everytime there was an uninvited thought?
- contemplate mental states: is a mental state a "mental formation" as in https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/52 ... formations ?

Thanks
Last edited by AsianInTheWest on Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

  1. Feelings = Pain, Pleasure, Happiness, Sorrow, and Neutral feelings. Contemplate them whenever they arise, and wherever they arise to understand their true nature.
  2. Thoughts = whatever thoughts arises during meditation should be known as they really are.
  3. Mental States = Negative mental states, such as the five hindrances, and positive ones such as the factors of enlightenment.
Contemplate all four foundations of mindfulness, as they arise and pass away until one gains insight into the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering or unsatisfactoriness, and not-self, i.e. not subject to my wish or control. Understanding these three characteristics means insight. To gain insight, the meditator must spend many hours, days, and weeks cultivating mindfulness and concentration to see phenomena as they truly are.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

A big thanks. Such a reference to an official source is what I can only find from a knowledgeable practitioner.
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

A friend of mine sent me a video on Kundalini Yoga by Swami Tadatmananda at https://arshabodha.org, which sparks my interest.

A quick browsing on his video shows me this series of meditation foundation. I will post it here for me to find later, and to receive guidance from people on this forum.



One of his video seems to address my agitated mind and the chain of thoughts, by suggesting chanting OM mantra.

What I like in many of his videos: (1) honesty, (2) systematic presentation of the theory and practice from ancient techniques.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by Sam Vara »

AsianInTheWest wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:07 pm A friend of mine sent me a video on Kundalini Yoga by Swami Tadatmananda at https://arshabodha.org, which sparks my interest.

A quick browsing on his video shows me this series of meditation foundation. I will post it here for me to find later, and to receive guidance from people on this forum.

One of his video seems to address my agitated mind and the chain of thoughts, by suggesting chanting OM mantra.

What I like in many of his videos: (1) honesty, (2) systematic presentation of the theory and practice from ancient techniques.
It might be just perfect for you - exactly what you need at the moment. But there's no way of telling. My initial advice is not to mix different techniques, especially ones from radically different traditions. At the least, you will have trouble in explaining to teachers what is going on, unless they are familiar with both traditions.
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

A nice 1-hour session I've done.

The first suggestions by Swami Tadatmananda that I've just learnt

- Declaring intention by noting in the mind: "I allow myself to focus on this session, any matter will be solved afterwards"
- Slow and deep breathing (slower exhalation than inhalation)
- Small "silent mantra": noting "peace" while inhaling and "release" while exhaling

, have helped me in concentrating better:

- I could feel more sensation on my face, in Goenka tradition (I do baby steps by focusing only on the face)
- A wound of the distant path pops up, halfly by itself (the other half by a link to a recent event that pops up). Wounds pooping up is a positive sign in Goenka tradition, and I have experienced it during the 10-day Goenka.
- there was a moment that upon hearing a sound, I did not know where I was, although one second before I did not sleep.

So it's a good news for my path, although I know the 2 following things:
- I should not let this raise the bar to "continually look for a similarly good session"
- My mind is often very good focused after having something new, and will be distracted and wander the following days. I know this ADHD of mine very well: my concentration is often very low, but if I change the room or table setting then I could "live well" for 2-3 days :tongue:

Thanks
AsianInTheWest
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:57 pm

Re: Home I concentrate worse than in the Goenka 10-day course

Post by AsianInTheWest »

2nd session with the new concentration technic, also good.

When someone called me via the phone, it took time for me to come to reality, which seems to suggest I was "deep enough" in meditation.
Post Reply