Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Gami47
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 11:06 pm

Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Gami47 »

:namaste:
Justsit
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Justsit »

What do you mean by "valid?"
Gami47
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Gami47 »

Justsit wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:47 pm What do you mean by "valid?"
By valid I mean is Vajrayana a path that can actually lead to Nibbana.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Yes.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by BrokenBones »

The main road to nibbana is renunciation. Renunciation of craving; giving up the desire for fleeting sensual pleasures.

Vajrayana claims to be able to transform that desire energy into the path towards enlightenment. So you can indulge your base desires and it's all good 😉

So, is vajrayana a valid path to enlightenment? That's up to you to decide.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Most of the preliminary vows in Vajrayana Buddhism include purity in thought, word, and deed, and taming the mind. It's quite a Path of renunciation actually, even to begin with. It's all Buddhism.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
Justsit
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Justsit »

I think Vajrayana practitioners will say yes, it is valid in that it can lead to enlightment.

Since I just noticed this in the Theravada Buddhist Doctrine section, though, I'm guessing you might get other answers here, and will leave it at that. :bow:
Justsit
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Justsit »

OK, looks like we're in a different section now.
Continuing:
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:15 pm The main road to nibbana is renunciation. Renunciation of craving; giving up the desire for fleeting sensual pleasures.

Vajrayana claims to be able to transform that desire energy into the path towards enlightenment. So you can indulge your base desires and it's all good 😉

So, is vajrayana a valid path to enlightenment? That's up to you to decide.
You kinda skipped the part about how you transfer that energy. The outer and inner preliminaries, ngondro, (100,000 prostrations, 100,000 mantras, etc.), three year retreat, etc etc. It's literally years of work, and ultimately, the "base desires" are transformed to something else entirely.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by DNS »

Gami47 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:05 pm
Justsit wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:47 pm What do you mean by "valid?"
By valid I mean is Vajrayana a path that can actually lead to Nibbana.
It may not be a valid question. Vajrayana does not seek Nibbana, they seek Nirvana. :tongue:

Actually, not even nirvana, at least not anytime soon. Some take the Bodhisattva vow, to continue to be reborn, assisting others on the Path. They seek Buddhahood, not nirvana, at least not nirvana until some very distant future time.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Mahabrahma »

https://garchen.net/ has a lot of Vajrayana resources for those seeking an indepth answer.

Image
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by dharmacorps »

There are a few "Buddhist religions", of which, Vajrayana is one claiming the Buddha as their master. I have no idea where the Vajrayana path leads. Some techniques seem to have promise, but it seems fairly different, and at times to have no relationship to the Buddha I have come to understand from the Pali canon, so I can't really say.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by BrokenBones »

Justsit wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:35 pm OK, looks like we're in a different section now.
Continuing:
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:15 pm The main road to nibbana is renunciation. Renunciation of craving; giving up the desire for fleeting sensual pleasures.

Vajrayana claims to be able to transform that desire energy into the path towards enlightenment. So you can indulge your base desires and it's all good 😉

So, is vajrayana a valid path to enlightenment? That's up to you to decide.
You kinda skipped the part about how you transfer that energy. The outer and inner preliminaries, ngondro, (100,000 prostrations, 100,000 mantras, etc.), three year retreat, etc etc. It's literally years of work, and ultimately, the "base desires" are transformed to something else entirely.
Nah... it's the short path 😜

What better way to indulge your desires than kid yourself they're part of the path.

Nibbana is the abandonment & ending of desires... you put the fire out by cooling the flames & not adding fuel; not pouring petrol on it and kidding yourself it's water.

The bliss of renunciation is far superior to the sensual bliss gained from the senses. Renunciation leads to nibbana; sensuality keeps one in samsara.

People can cloak their indulgences in all manner of pseudo spirituality but if people want to get their rocks off then just do it... but it insults the intelligence to align it with the Buddha's teachings...

"Suppose, monks, that in a forested wilderness there were a large low-lying marsh, in dependence on which there lived a large herd of deer; and a certain man were to appear, not desiring their benefit, not desiring their welfare, not desiring their rest from bondage. He would close off the safe, restful path that led to their rapture, and would open up a false path, set out a male decoy, place a female decoy, and thus the large herd of deer would eventually fall into ruin, disaster, & decimation. Then suppose that a certain man were to appear to that same large herd of deer, desiring their benefit, desiring their welfare, desiring their rest from bondage. He would open up the safe, restful path that led to their rapture, would close off the false path, take away the male decoy, destroy the female decoy, and thus the large herd of deer would eventually come into growth, increase, & abundance.

"I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: 'The large, low-lying marsh' stands for sensuality. 'The large herd of deer' stands for beings. 'The man not desiring their benefit, not desiring their welfare, not desiring their rest from bondage' stands for Mara, the Evil One. 'The false path' stands for the eightfold wrong path, i.e., wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration. 'The male decoy' stands for passion & delight. 'The female decoy' stands for ignorance. 'The man desiring their benefit, desiring their welfare, desiring their rest from bondage' stands for the Tathagata, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. 'The safe, restful path that led to their rapture' stands for the noble eightfold path, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration.

"So, monks, I have opened up the safe, restful path, closed off the false path, removed the male decoy, destroyed the female. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Watch any one of these videos or structure yourself.

But take a ten minute look at this series of Jewel Ornament of Libertion, any video, just give yourself ten minutes and you'll have some understanding of how serious this Buddhist Practice is.

That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by BrokenBones »

Mahabrahma wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:47 am Watch any one of these videos or structure yourself.

But take a ten minute look at this series of Jewel Ornament of Libertion, any video, just give yourself ten minutes and you'll have some understanding of how serious this Buddhist Practice is.
Could you make a three or four line comment on the gist? Something like...

4 Noble truths
There is suffering; there is a cause of suffering; there is an end of suffering; and there is a path out of suffering which is the Eightfold Path.
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: Is Vajrayana Buddhism a valid way to enlightenment?

Post by Mahabrahma »

From the Morning Prayer Book
I beseech you, protectors who abide throughout all realms, please
do not pass into nirvana until the exhaustion of the dhatu of space,
rather fulfill your commitments by abiding permanently.

May all sentient beings be established in the unsurpassed, supreme
state by this virtue, by the virtues accumulated in the three times
throughout all samsara and nirvana, and by the undefiled innate
virtue.

By the light rays of immeasurable great compassion from the palace of body, speech, and mind of the Victorious One, please purify
my body, speech and mind, and thus transform it into your body,
speech, and mind.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
Post Reply