How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

[Bundokji]

Thank you for admitting that you made that part up. There's no flaw in my logic, and again, this only proves that you have not read my quotes carefully. Nowhere did I ever said that "slavery" is the one and only form of kammic retribution a monk who consumes requisites in the 1st and 2nd modes will have to face. I only mentioned "slavery" as a logical inference from MN 135, where the consequence for one who's stingy on giving is bad enough, let alone a lifetime committing theft. Matter of fact, based on MN 135, and provided that you also have read that sutta also, "slavery" would still be quite some tame scenario for those who spent a lifetime committing theft!

Thank you for admitting that "slavery is not the only form of kammic retribution for a a monk who consumes requisites in the 1st and 2nd modes. It makes one wonder what makes it the logical inference that worthy of explicit mentioning from infinite possibilities unless the underlying logic is Hammurabi's Code? Also your leniency in choosing to guess about slavery as a kammic retribution over other more severe consequences is worthy of admiration

[santa100]

Thank you for admitting that you made that part up. There's no flaw in my logic, and again, this only proves that you have not read my quotes carefully. Nowhere did I ever said that "slavery" is the one and only form of kammic retribution a monk who consumes requisites in the 1st and 2nd modes will have to face. I only mentioned "slavery" as a logical inference from MN 135, where the consequence for one who's stingy on giving is bad enough, let alone a lifetime committing theft. Matter of fact, based on MN 135, and provided that you also have read that sutta also, "slavery" would still be quite some tame scenario for those who spent a lifetime committing theft!

Thank you for admitting that "slavery is not the only form of kammic retribution for a a monk who consumes requisites in the 1st and 2nd modes. It makes one wonder what makes it the logical inference that worthy of explicit mentioning from infinite possibilities unless the underlying logic is Hammurabi's Code? Also your leniency in choosing to guess about slavery as a kammic retribution over other more severe consequences is worthy of admiration

Thank me for asking you to go back and read what I did and did not say. Again, there's no flaw in my logic, and again, I only mentioned "slavery" as a logical inference from MN 135, where the consequence for one who's stingy on giving is bad enough, let alone a lifetime committing theft. Matter of fact, based on MN 135, and provided that you also have read that sutta also, "slavery" would still be quite some tame scenario for those who spent a lifetime committing theft! MN 135 said they'd be very likely first to get rebirth into states of woes ( non-human states) first before they finally get a chance to be reborn back into the human state. Therefore, if you're a monk-thief, being reborn as a human slave would still considered to be very auspicious compared to what you first had to go through in your initial stage of Kammic payback. And if you think that'd be too harsh a sentence, don't blame me for I'm only a messenger. Bring up your complaints to the Buddha. He's the one that wrote MN 135, not me.

[Bundokji]

Thank me for asking you to go back and read what I did and did not say. Again, there's no flaw in my logic, and again, I only mentioned "slavery" as a logical inference from MN 135, where the consequence for one who's stingy on giving is bad enough, let alone a lifetime committing theft. Matter of fact, based on MN 135, and provided that you also have read that sutta also, "slavery" would still be quite some tame scenario for those who spent a lifetime committing theft! MN 135 said they'd be very likely first to get rebirth into states of woes ( non-human states) first before they finally get a chance to be reborn back into the human state. Therefore, if you're a monk-thief, being reborn as a human slave would still considered to be very auspicious compared to what you first had to go through in your initial stage of Kammic payback. And if you think that'd be too harsh a sentence, don't blame me for I'm only a messenger. Bring up your complaints to the Buddha. He's the one that wrote MN 135, not me.

Is slavery mentioned in MN135 or anywhere else? or is it made up by you? Logical inferences can be made up, as per my example about parents breeding kids who die without being enlightened.

Your logical inference seems to be driven by Hammurabi's Code. I find it misleading and flawed not only because it is speculative, but because it gives a distorted image of what could be kammically safer choice when everything else being equal (based on Hammurabi's Code): lay life or monasticism? I would say that based on reducing harm, monasticism is a safer choice. Also if we stretch our imagination about theft and debt, we can reach all sorts of silly conclusions. We could argue that monasticism is debited to laity by using them as a supply chain, or that monks would still be debtd to their parents by renouncing their families instead of taking care of their parents ...etc

[santa100]

Is slavery mentioned in MN135 or anywhere else? or is it made up by you? Logical inferences can be made up, as per my example about parents breeding kids who die without being enlightened.

Your logical inference seems to be driven by Hammurabi's Code. I find it misleading and flawed not only because it is speculative, but because it gives a distorted image of what could be kammically safer choice when everything else being equal (based on Hammurabi's Code): lay life or monasticism? I would say that based on reducing harm, monasticism is a safer choice. Also if we stretch our imagination about theft and debt, we can reach all sorts of silly conclusions. We could argue that monasticism is debited to laity by using them as a supply chain, or that monks would still be debtd to their parents by renouncing their families instead of taking care of their parents ...etc

If MN 135 said the consequence of one who's stingy in giving is first to be reborn into states of woes (non-human states), do you agree that being reborn as a human slave is not only a possible scenario but also very much a tame scenario for one who committs a lifetime of theft? just answer yes or no.

[JamesTheGiant]

What did you have to do at the monastery? Aren't monks supposed to have "few duties" and be devoted to seclusion?

Thank you.

A description of one day:
viewtopic.php?p=337473#p337473

[Bundokji]

If MN 135 said the consequence of one who's stingy in giving is first to be reborn into states of woes (non-human states), do you agree that being reborn as a human slave is not only a possible scenario but also very much a tame scenario for one who committs a lifetime of theft? just answer yes or no.

Strangely, earlier today i was thinking: if someone asks you to answer yes or no to question, it is a sign they have a weak hand.

[santa100]

If MN 135 said the consequence of one who's stingy in giving is first to be reborn into states of woes (non-human states), do you agree that being reborn as a human slave is not only a possible scenario but also very much a tame scenario for one who committs a lifetime of theft? just answer yes or no.

Strangely, earlier today i was thinking: if someone asks you to answer yes or no to question, it is a sign they have a weak hand.

Again, weak hand or strong hand, that's entirely your own speculation. I ask a simple question which requires a simple 1-word answer. If you don't want or can't answer it, then that's cool too. It is what it is.

[Mahabrahma]

Let your yes be yes, let your no be no, anything else is from the evil one.

[TRobinson465]

Ive ordained temporarily and id say it depends and is just a matter of opinion. I would certainly say monastic life is more difficult than the full time job i do now as a white collar tech worker, but thinking of some of my past jobs i think monk life was easier than a full time job in those positions. But in some ways monastic life is easier since its a simpler life and what i do in my free time now is largely similar to what id be doing as a monk anyways. Some of the people ive ordained with commented that monk life is harder, one even commenting that its harder than when he was in the military because at least in the military you get days off whereas monastics don't (especially ones in a short term ordination program). But he was also the type of guy who was more into physical training than the life of a contemplative.

So it really depends on what kind of life you prefer, how you feel about chanting and meditation, how easy is it for you to sleep on a mat, be away from your lay family and friends, live and work with other monastics etc. Some people will find it easier, some harder. Also depends on the monastery as well, which country you're in etc.

[TRobinson465]

“Then, having given me this exhortation, the Blessed One rose from his seat and departed. For seven days, friend, I ate the country’s almsfood as a debtor, but on the eighth day final knowledge arose.

Im fairly sure Mahakassapa made that debt statement as a practice. Every monk should indeed practice as if they are in debt to the laypeople. Just as they should practice by seeing the danger in the slightest fault. its not really true that there is significant danger in a slight fault for a monk. There is no evidence in the texts or commentaries that suggests that monks are literally in karmic debt if they become monks and dont become arahants. I'm only aware of hte Buddha saying unvirtuous monks go to hell or get any kind of bad kamma from eating alms food. In fact, texts from ive seen point that the merit of simply being a virtuous monk is far greater than the merit accrued by laypeople who give to virtuous monks, even if they are not arahants yet. Considering the Buddha said that a layperson who gives to the sangha can literally hand alms to a charlatan monk and will still get incalculable merit theres no reason to think there is any literal debt to pay. Food is virtually worthless compared to huge amounts of merit or the Dhamma that they teach. Even giving to a non-Buddhist ascetic who is well trained is enourmous merit, and non-Buddhist ascetics arent even on the right path to arahantship.

Also if it was literally meant that any monk who is not an arahant is literally in debt. these passages would make absolutely no sense.

“If, mendicants, a mendicant develops the first absorption, even as long as a finger-snap, they are called a mendicant who does not lack absorption, who follows the Teacher’s instructions, who responds to advice, and who does not eat the country’s alms in vain. How much more so those who make much of it!”

If a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body … feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world, even for the time of a finger-snap …

If they generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise, even for the time of a finger-snap … If they generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up, even for the time of a finger-snap … If they generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have not arisen do arise, even for the time of a finger-snap … If they generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are fulfilled by development, even for the time of a finger-snap …

If they develop the faculty of faith … the faculty of energy … the faculty of mindfulness … the faculty of immersion … the faculty of wisdom, even for the time of a finger-snap … That mendicant is called a mendicant who does not lack absorption, who follows the Teacher’s instructions, who responds to advice, and who does not eat the country’s alms in vain. How much more so those who make much of it!”

https://suttacentral.net/an1.394-574/en ... ript=latin

[Ceisiwr]

and what is that connection exactly? if don't want to do that or cannot do that, no worries.

How you reasoned from one to the other, which is why I’m asking for a logical argument to be put forward. You could have found something interesting, but I’m beginning to doubt that.

From what "one" to what "other"? is what I'm trying to get clarification from you in order to accurately address your inquiry. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're trying to say or to ask.

From your premise to a conclusion, but never mind.

[mikenz66]

What did you have to do at the monastery? Aren't monks supposed to have "few duties" and be devoted to seclusion?

Thank you.

A description of one day:
viewtopic.php?p=337473#p337473

I was a little puzzled by the question, and some of the responses. There seems to be an implication that "duties" or "requirements" are just stuff that gets in the way of "real practice".

On the contrary, as James link highlights, monastic life (if it's being done properly) is a training.

In the same way, when the Realized One gets a person for training they first guide them like this:
‘Come, mendicant, be ethical and restrained in the monastic code, conducting yourself well and seeking alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, keep the rules you’ve undertaken.’

When they have ethical conduct, the Realized One guides them further:
‘Come, mendicant, guard your sense doors.
...
https://suttacentral.net/mn107/

Mike

[SarathW]

Considering the fact that we do not have Buddha today, they all depend on the chief monk and the other control freaks around you.
If you get into a temple that is building a temple all you do is a labor job.
If you have to train a lot of other monks or lay people what you will be doing all day will be teaching.
I think there is a Sutta about choosing the right temple.
The best is to live with your teacher as a lay person for while.

[Alex123]

Considering the fact that we do not have Buddha today, they all depend on the chief monk and the other control freaks around you.
If you get into a temple that is building a temple all you do is a labor job.
If you have to train a lot of other monks or lay people what you will be doing all day will be teaching.
I think there is a Sutta about choosing the right temple.
The best is to live with your teacher as a lay person for while.

Good reply!

Thanks.

[santa100]

From your premise to a conclusion, but never mind.

If you can't spell out the premise and the conclusion, but never mind.