How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:16 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:13 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:10 pm
I did. You have to say what is not supporting it.
I’m not seeing a connection between the sutta nor the commentary and this
attain enlightenment ASAP if they don't want to come back in some form of slavery their next lives to pay back all the free food, lodgings, and amenities they've enjoyed for free in this current life. No such thing as a free lunch as they used to say, and especially not from a Kammic perspective!
You seem to think that because it says “debtor” then unawakened monks are born into slavery when they die. I don’t see how that conclusion is supported based on the passages you have provided. Not saying there isn’t one, but it looks like a leap in logic so far.
I said "in some form of slavery" since that certainly applies to the 1st criteria, consuming requisites BY THEFT. And for the 2nd criteria, consuming as debtor, it's only logical that one will have to pay back in some way and some form, and it's not good either way.
Could you set out that logical argument for us?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:16 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:16 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:13 pm

I’m not seeing a connection between the sutta nor the commentary and this



You seem to think that because it says “debtor” then unawakened monks are born into slavery when they die. I don’t see how that conclusion is supported based on the passages you have provided. Not saying there isn’t one, but it looks like a leap in logic so far.
I said "in some form of slavery" since that certainly applies to the 1st criteria, consuming requisites BY THEFT. And for the 2nd criteria, consuming as debtor, it's only logical that one will have to pay back in some way and some form, and it's not good either way.
Could you set out that logical argument for us?
Consumming BY THEFT will have to pay back. Are you trying to say that monks consuming requisites by the 1st and 2nd criteria can get a way for free?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:18 pm Consumming BY THEFT will have to pay back. Are you trying to say that monks consuming requisites by the 1st and 2nd criteria can get a way for free?
Right now I’m just asking for an argument in logical form.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:21 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:18 pm Consumming BY THEFT will have to pay back. Are you trying to say that monks consuming requisites by the 1st and 2nd criteria can get a way for free?
Right now I’m just asking for an argument in logical form.
Right now I want to see what exactly is the problem that you see?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:21 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:18 pm Consumming BY THEFT will have to pay back. Are you trying to say that monks consuming requisites by the 1st and 2nd criteria can get a way for free?
Right now I’m just asking for an argument in logical form.
Right now I want to see what exactly is the problem that you see?
I’m not seeing the connection, hence my request for it to be in logical form. If you don’t want to do that or can’t do that, no worries.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:25 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:22 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:21 pm

Right now I’m just asking for an argument in logical form.
Right now I want to see what exactly is the problem that you see?
I’m not seeing the connection, hence my request for it to be in logical form. If you don’t want to do that or can’t do that, no worries.
and what is that connection exactly? if don't want to do that or cannot do that, no worries.
SarathW
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by SarathW »

:focus: :D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:25 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:22 pm
Right now I want to see what exactly is the problem that you see?
I’m not seeing the connection, hence my request for it to be in logical form. If you don’t want to do that or can’t do that, no worries.
and what is that connection exactly? if don't want to do that or cannot do that, no worries.
How you reasoned from one to the other, which is why I’m asking for a logical argument to be put forward. You could have found something interesting, but I’m beginning to doubt that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:28 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:25 pm

I’m not seeing the connection, hence my request for it to be in logical form. If you don’t want to do that or can’t do that, no worries.
and what is that connection exactly? if don't want to do that or cannot do that, no worries.
How you reasoned from one to the other, which is why I’m asking for a logical argument to be put forward. You could have found something interesting, but I’m beginning to doubt that.
From what "one" to what "other"? is what I'm trying to get clarification from you in order to accurately address your inquiry. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're trying to say or to ask.
Bundokji
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Bundokji »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:28 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:26 pm
and what is that connection exactly? if don't want to do that or cannot do that, no worries.
How you reasoned from one to the other, which is why I’m asking for a logical argument to be put forward. You could have found something interesting, but I’m beginning to doubt that.
From what "one" to what "other"? is what I'm trying to get clarification from you in order to accurately address your inquiry. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're trying to say or to ask.
Acknowledging debt is one thing, and using Hammurabi's Code to interpret how this is going to be paid is another.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:08 pm Acknowledging debt is one thing, and using Hammurabi's Code to interpret how this is going to be paid is another.
Not sure if you intentionally or unintentionally ignore my previous sutta quotes cuz if you did read it, you'd know it's a lot more than just a debt, but could also be A THEFT. And going by MN 135, if the future destination for one who simply does not give charitable donation is bad enough, how much worse one could imagine the consequence for those with A LIFETIME committing THEFT will be!
Bundokji
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Bundokji »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:20 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:08 pm Acknowledging debt is one thing, and using Hammurabi's Code to interpret how this is going to be paid is another.
Not sure if you intentionally or unintentionally ignore my previous sutta quotes cuz if you did read it, you'd know it's a lot more than just a debt, but could also be A THEFT. And going by MN 135, if the future destination for one who simply does not give charitable donation is bad enough, how much worse one could imagine the consequence for those with A LIFETIME committing THEFT will be!
In terms of dana, the gift of dhamma is the highest, hence monks repay often by teaching dhamma, help laity to maintain faith, accepting alms which would be rewarding to givers ... etc
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon. What ten?

(1) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I have entered upon a classless condition.’

[Other translators have, “... the state of an outcaste” and “... a status different from my former one”]

(2) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My living is dependent upon others.’

(3) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My deportment should be different.’

(4) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I reproach myself in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(5) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do my wise fellow monks, having investigated, reproach me in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(6) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I must be parted and separated from everyone and everything dear and agreeable to me.’

(7) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

(8) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘How am I spending my nights and days?’

(9) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I take delight in empty huts?’

(10) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Have I attained any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, so that in my last days, when I am questioned by my fellow monks, I will not be embarrassed?’

“These, bhikkhus, are the ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon.”
Let alone how much harm is avoided by monks using your own logic on laity. With your logic, it is not far fetched for parents to suffer the kammic consequences of breeding a child who will most likely die without being enlightened. On the contrary, the notion of debt goes the other way around from the child to the parents.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:28 pm Let alone how much harm is avoided by monks using your own logic on laity. With your logic, it is not far fetched for parents to suffer the kammic consequences of breeding a child who will most likely die without being enlightened. On the contrary, the notion of debt goes the other way around from the child to the parents.
Your logic is flaw and it must be due to you intentionally ignore my previous sutta quotes. There it specifically says about the 1st mode: consumption by theft, and the 2nd mode: consumption as a debtor. There it says nothing about parents breeding unenlightened children. It only specifically says about the 4 modes of requisites consumption by a monk or a nun. That parents children part is entirely made up by you.
Bundokji
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by Bundokji »

santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pm Your logic is flaw and it must be due to you intentionally ignore my previous sutta quotes. There it specifically says about the 1st mode: consumption by theft, and the 2nd mode: consumption as a debtor. There it says nothing about parents breeding unenlightened children. It only specifically says about the 4 modes of requisites consumption by a monk or a nun. That parents children part is entirely made up by you.
The point about parents, children and debt was indeed made up by me, to show a flaw in the logic presented by you to conclude slavery as kammic retribution for debt if the monk does not reach enlightenment.

Do you have any direct/literal reference about the slavery part of your reasoning? If not, then it is a mere interpretation of how kamma would work in that case. It seems to be driven by Hammurabi's Code - i.e the monk ate alms when he was not serious enough about escaping samsara, then samsara would bite him back by enslaving him to repay his debts.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
santa100
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Re: How difficult is monastic life vs full time job?

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:40 pm
santa100 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:32 pm Your logic is flaw and it must be due to you intentionally ignore my previous sutta quotes. There it specifically says about the 1st mode: consumption by theft, and the 2nd mode: consumption as a debtor. There it says nothing about parents breeding unenlightened children. It only specifically says about the 4 modes of requisites consumption by a monk or a nun. That parents children part is entirely made up by you.
The point about parents, children and debt was indeed made up by me, to show a flaw in the logic presented by you to conclude slavery as kammic retribution for debt if the monk does not reach enlightenment.

Do you have any direct/literal reference about the slavery part of your reasoning? If not, then it is a mere interpretation of how kamma would work in that case. It seems to be driven by Hammurabi's Code - i.e the monk ate alms when he was not serious enough about escaping samsara, then samsara would bite him back by enslaving him to repay his debts.
Thank you for admitting that you made that part up. There's no flaw in my logic, and again, this only proves that you have not read my quotes carefully. Nowhere did I ever said that "slavery" is the one and only form of kammic retribution a monk who consumes requisites in the 1st and 2nd modes will have to face. I only mentioned "slavery" as a logical inference from MN 135, where the consequence for one who's stingy on giving is bad enough, let alone a lifetime committing theft. Matter of fact, based on MN 135, and provided that you also have read that sutta also, "slavery" would still be quite some tame scenario for those who spent a lifetime committing theft! MN 135 said they'd be very likely first to get rebirth into states of woes ( non-human states) first before they finally get a chance to be reborn back into the human state. Therefore, if you're a monk-thief, being reborn as a human slave would still considered to be very auspicious compared to what you first had to go through in your initial stage of Kammic payback!
Last edited by santa100 on Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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