Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Bundokji
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Bundokji »

Between the act of hearing through the physical ear from an ariya, and the moment of fruition, there is the gradual dissolution of the first three fetters. Upon fruition, the sense of time is converted, as if the act of hearing happened at the moment of fruition, or remembering the ariya status that has always been there.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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zerotime
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by zerotime »

berrywheel wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:48 pm However, online I'll find much content about one needing to have achieved the first Jhana
commonly that's wrong. One should keep attention to don't trust those preaching about the exclusivity of only one practice for the progress. Such ignorant people believes the Buddha was so limited like themselves, without realizing their ridicule ego projection towards the highest being conceivable which is a Buddha, able to teach in endless different ways.

90% of modern Dhamma preachers are not ariyas be dressed with Buddhist robes or not. If you believe in those wrong ideas it can become a serious obstacle for your progress, and at the end it would be built by yourself.

Believing by oneself instead others is crucial. When reading the Suttas, think by yourself. Look the lifes of those ancient lay people because they were like us. So ask yourself where is the difference. You will check how a main difference is that they believed nibbana was accessible, and that added obstacle was missing. They pursued nibbana instead 1st jhana or whatever.
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zerotime
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by zerotime »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:16 pm Which is not align with Theravada orthodoxy.
Beware our mind programming about what Buddhism should be, because in the West it has been modelated from 120 years ago.
Rupert Gethin wrote these precise words in that regard:

"The attempt to marginalize the practice of miraculous powers in the earliest Buddhist texts must be considered a feature of Buddhist modernism, and related to the late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century preoccupation with recovering a historical Buddha congenial to the rationalist and ethical sensitivities of certain Buddhist apologists."

I believe that venerable was right. There is another more subtile -self which can be called a soul, subtile body, etcetera. Any name for that doesn't contradict the Buddha teaching while anatta teaching is kept.

The magical thinking is not any failure in the mind but an inherent part of the psyche and Reality. It should be understood and equilibrated with the rational thinking in where normally we remain. Buddhism and the sources are replete of that aspect because there is something to learn from that.
Last edited by zerotime on Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex123
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Alex123 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:49 pm There are many suttas where the listeners enlighten just hearing the Buddha preach. So this is well founded in the texts.

I was told the reason this is possible is many of the Buddha's listeners would “meditate” while listening to a sutta and become enlightened that way.
Yes, what I was thinking today was that if we look at the graduated talk that the Buddha give, it appears that He managed to get the listener to the 1st Jhana from which one reached stream-entry.
So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e.,
he proclaimed a talk on generosity,
on virtue,
on heaven;
he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation.
Talk on heaven reorient clinging to non-human sensual pleasures. Then when one is not focused on human sensual pleasures, the Buddha taught drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality.
The above is a way to 1st jhana.
Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper’s mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
Ud5.3
below is how the Buddha reached 1st Jhana
So it is, Ānanda. So it is. Even I myself, before my self-awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, thought: ‘Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.’ But my heart didn’t leap up at renunciation, didn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: ‘What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn’t leap up at renunciation, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?’ Then the thought occurred to me: ‘I haven’t seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven’t pursued (that theme). I haven’t understood the reward of renunciation; I haven’t familiarized myself with it. That’s why my heart doesn’t leap up at renunciation, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.’
...
“So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhāna...
AN9.41
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Ceisiwr »

To give another point of view, if I remember correctly Sujato doubts that this ever happened. Something about those narratives not being shared across the different versions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Joe.c »

Never seen anyone who enter the stream by meditation in Sutta. 😅

But become a non returner and arahant surely lots of them. Actually Ven. Sariputta just heard the dhamma to become an arahant. 😀
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Ontheway
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Ontheway »

zerotime wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:45 pm
Ontheway wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:16 pm Which is not align with Theravada orthodoxy.
Beware our mind programming about what Buddhism should be, because in the West it has been modelated from 120 years ago.
Rupert Gethin wrote these precise words in that regard:

"The attempt to marginalize the practice of miraculous powers in the earliest Buddhist texts must be considered a feature of Buddhist modernism, and related to the late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century preoccupation with recovering a historical Buddha congenial to the rationalist and ethical sensitivities of certain Buddhist apologists."

I believe that venerable was right. There is another more subtile -self which can be called a soul, subtile body, etcetera. Any name for that doesn't contradict the Buddha teaching while anatta teaching is kept.

The magical thinking is not any failure in the mind but an inherent part of the psyche and Reality. It should be understood and equilibrated with the rational thinking in where normally we remain. Buddhism and the sources are replete of that aspect because there is something to learn from that.
Nope, that is exactly contradictory with Buddha's teachings on Anatta.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by SarathW »

It is important not only ascetic Kondann became Sotapann by listening to Buddha first.
All the other four took some time.
Even ascetic Kondanna had to listen to Buddha for many days.
Also, remember these five ascetics are experienced meditators who perhaps attain Arupa Jhana.

So do not expect to become a Sotapanna only by just listening to a monk for the first time.
Perhaps you have to practice for a long time and one day you will become a Sotapanna suddenly by listening to a monk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
acessoaoinsight
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by acessoaoinsight »

There are two factors which can influence a practitioner to achieve enlightnement by simply listening:

First: having practiced meditation in past lives

Second: the Buddha knew exactly which kind of teaching someone (not everyone), just by hearing could achieve enlightenment. There are some good examples in the suttas like the Dhammacakapavatta - the first discourse of the Buddha - where Kondañña achieved some level of enlightenment. Another example is the Kutthi Sutta - Udana V.3.

How do we know if practiced in previous lives? Just by practicing. One of the conditions to advance in Meditation is silencing the thoughts. Quite difficult in our culture. But if someone can achieve it without some difficulty, could be from previous life practice.

Are there monks today who can have the same ability of the Buddha to select the teachings which will transform the mind of the listener? Maybe. If one has a good past kamma maybe will find such a teacher.
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zerotime
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by zerotime »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:43 am Nope, that is exactly contradictory with Buddha's teachings on Anatta.
gandhaba and manomaya-kaya are part of the teaching. Where do you think there is contradiction?
Joe.c
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Joe.c »

Regarding mano maya kaya for one who achieve purification, one can pull out the mind made body from this physical body.
DN 2 wrote:From this body they produce another body, rupa, mind-made, complete in all its various parts, not deficient in any faculty.

Suppose a person was to draw a reed out from its sheath.

They’d think:
‘This is the reed, this is the sheath. The reed and the sheath are different things. The reed has been drawn out from the sheath.

Or suppose a person was to draw a sword out from its scabbard.’

Or suppose a person was to draw a snake out from its slough.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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zerotime
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by zerotime »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:56 am Regarding mano maya kaya for one who achieve purification, one can pull out the mind made body from this physical body.
yes, this is what many people from other beliefs name a soul. This is a more subtle aspect of -self, like in example happens when you are dreaming and experiencing a dream. In the dream, also there is a -self grasping this and that. So this is also a more subtle -self.

Although one shouldn't be confused when reading "one who achieve purification". Logically, for somebody with a perfect purification it can become a very natural event, although also it can happen due to enough moments of mind purification and detachment from body. In that way, this phenomena have existed through the History and the whole world, and also in common people. Some people name to it soul, spirit, astral body, and etc. However, as happens in our common frame of daily experience, that other ambit of Reality also is conditioned by wisdom. And therefore there are different explanations, experiences of forms and depth of discernment. Despite there are some common patterns in the frame itself.

Many Buddhists in the West can be shocked when reading those words from that venerable, although there is not strange thing. The surprise is really produced by a frame of mind conditioned by what Rupert Gethin writes: we have an specific view on Buddhism modelated from 19th century. The evolution in the West has been variable, and the view on Buddhism in the 60-80's years is not the same than today. Although finally, today in the West there is a view on Buddhism more puritan and rationalist, less open minded to that inherent part of Buddhism from always.

Because it is linked with our magical thought and there is a puritan allergy reaction towards that: in depth, most people is fascinated by that Buddhist side, although openly many prefers reject that part to preserve the rational view at any cost. This is like a kind of repression, very interesting to review in the own mind.
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Alex123
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:48 pm To give another point of view, if I remember correctly Sujato doubts that this ever happened. Something about those narratives not being shared across the different versions.
Can you, please, provide more detail? I would like to know more details.


Thanks.
justindesilva
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:51 am It is important not only ascetic Kondann became Sotapann by listening to Buddha first.
All the other four took some time.
Even ascetic Kondanna had to listen to Buddha for many days.
Also, remember these five ascetics are experienced meditators who perhaps attain Arupa Jhana.

So do not expect to become a Sotapanna only by just listening to a monk for the first time.
Perhaps you have to practice for a long time and one day you will become a Sotapanna suddenly by listening to a monk.
Is there evidence to show that yakka Alavaka
got enlightened by former meditation in actual fact , he was made to listen to damma after a so called dyana struggle as in Alavaka sutta . Vattupama sutta explains the way a person getting to stream entry after showing the analogy of a dirty cloth .
Patacara entered the stream of damma after trying to find certain seeds from a house where there was no funeral .
I also wish to show that the king Tissa got in to stream entry by seeking answers to questions made by Mihindu thero , the son of an Indian king , Dharmasoka , who sent his son for the purpose of spreading buddhism in to Sri Lanka . In all these instances meditation was not involved to become a stream enterer .
Many foreigners have become buddhists in Sri lanka after seeing the way of life of a buddhist monastic here in sri lanka and their life stories are available on utube .
Quite often one is bent on entering the stream of budda damma by observing and meditation is then followed .
SarathW
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by SarathW »

justindesilva wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:12 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:51 am It is important not only ascetic Kondann became Sotapann by listening to Buddha first.
All the other four took some time.
Even ascetic Kondanna had to listen to Buddha for many days.
Also, remember these five ascetics are experienced meditators who perhaps attain Arupa Jhana.

So do not expect to become a Sotapanna only by just listening to a monk for the first time.
Perhaps you have to practice for a long time and one day you will become a Sotapanna suddenly by listening to a monk.
Is there evidence to show that yakka Alavaka
got enlightened by former meditation in actual fact , he was made to listen to damma after a so called dyana struggle as in Alavaka sutta . Vattupama sutta explains the way a person getting to stream entry after showing the analogy of a dirty cloth .
Patacara entered the stream of damma after trying to find certain seeds from a house where there was no funeral .
I also wish to show that the king Tissa got in to stream entry by seeking answers to questions made by Mihindu thero , the son of an Indian king , Dharmasoka , who sent his son for the purpose of spreading buddhism in to Sri Lanka . In all these instances meditation was not involved to become a stream enterer .
Many foreigners have become buddhists in Sri lanka after seeing the way of life of a buddhist monastic here in sri lanka and their life stories are available on utube .
Quite often one is bent on entering the stream of budda damma by observing and meditation is then followed .
Meditation does not necessarily means formal meditation.
If you examine your example, you can see the hint of concentration.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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