Agreed. Just be open minded. That is all. Otherwise one can't progress if stuck with logical or conventional/worldly thinking.
About Ven. Dhammavuddho, I just ask people to listen his explanation about soul.
He just said Soul in Buddhism is ever changing, not permanent depending on your character development. And He refer this as mano maya kaya.
But I know it can become controversy if one has preconception about "regular" soul definition as permanent.
If you don't like that explanation, then just left it alone.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:22 pm
He just said Soul in Buddhism is ever changing, not permanent depending on your character development. And He refer this as mano maya kaya.
But I know it can become controversy if one has preconception about "regular" soul definition as permanent.
If you don't like that explanation, then just left it alone.
Not at all what most people would consider a "soul", though; a use of an old term in a new way which was apparently in line with Theravadan orthodoxy.
Plus, the way he put away Abhidhamma Pitaka and commentaries, and that is the clear indication, he was not of orthodox Theravada. A orthodox Theravadin (or Vibhajjavadin) will be consistent enough to uphold all three Pitakas, along with commentaries.
One may be an admirable Buddhist without being an orthodox Theravadin. You do know that the Buddha wasn't an orthodox Theravadin?
In fact the Buddha spent his whole teaching life refusing to teach Abhidhamma. Several reasons spring to mind why this is so
SarathW wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:51 am
It is important not only ascetic Kondann became Sotapann by listening to Buddha first.
All the other four took some time.
Even ascetic Kondanna had to listen to Buddha for many days.
Also, remember these five ascetics are experienced meditators who perhaps attain Arupa Jhana.
So do not expect to become a Sotapanna only by just listening to a monk for the first time.
Perhaps you have to practice for a long time and one day you will become a Sotapanna suddenly by listening to a monk.
Is there evidence to show that yakka Alavaka
got enlightened by former meditation in actual fact , he was made to listen to damma after a so called dyana struggle as in Alavaka sutta . Vattupama sutta explains the way a person getting to stream entry after showing the analogy of a dirty cloth .
Patacara entered the stream of damma after trying to find certain seeds from a house where there was no funeral .
I also wish to show that the king Tissa got in to stream entry by seeking answers to questions made by Mihindu thero , the son of an Indian king , Dharmasoka , who sent his son for the purpose of spreading buddhism in to Sri Lanka . In all these instances meditation was not involved to become a stream enterer .
Many foreigners have become buddhists in Sri lanka after seeing the way of life of a buddhist monastic here in sri lanka and their life stories are available on utube .
Quite often one is bent on entering the stream of budda damma by observing and meditation is then followed .
Meditation does not necessarily means formal meditation.
If you examine your example, you can see the hint of concentration.
True, but in the society of buddhism meditation is covered by sathara satipattana
Is it not ?
“Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full.
So too, associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma.
Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith.
Faith, becoming full, fills up wise attention. Wise attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four applications of mindfulness. The four applications of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of awakening. The seven factors of awakening, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.”
Not at all what most people would consider a "soul", though; a use of an old term in a new way which was apparently in line with Theravadan orthodoxy.
Plus, the way he put away Abhidhamma Pitaka and commentaries, and that is the clear indication, he was not of orthodox Theravada. A orthodox Theravadin (or Vibhajjavadin) will be consistent enough to uphold all three Pitakas, along with commentaries.
One may be an admirable Buddhist without being an orthodox Theravadin. You do know that the Buddha wasn't an orthodox Theravadin?
In fact the Buddha spent his whole teaching life refusing to teach Abhidhamma. Several reasons spring to mind why this is so
This is plain wrong. When Buddha taught topics such as aggregates and elements, that belong to the realm of Abhidhamma.
Furthermore, the presence of Abhidhamma is already well proved in Suttanta Pitaka.
And to the PO, simply listening to Dhamma won't help to achieve Sotapanna.
So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a foothold in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, he got up from his seat and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear.
It's one of my favourites because Suppabuddha had no prior training, no meditative practice and no 'meditative practice' was given by the Buddha, Suppabuddha simply had to attend closely to the words... samadhi arose naturally through his attentiveness to the words and the Buddha provided the missing information.
Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:41 am
This is plain wrong. When Buddha taught topics such as aggregates and elements, that belong to the realm of Abhidhamma.
Furthermore, the presence of Abhidhamma is already well proved in Suttanta Pitaka.
And to the PO, simply listening to Dhamma won't help to achieve Sotapanna.
Wow you're plainly wrong. I'm clearly with Thanisaro in this one. You should study first on how the structure of holy scriptures work.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:25 am
It's one of my favourites because Suppabuddha had no prior training, no meditative practice and no 'meditative practice' was given by the Buddha, Suppabuddha simply had to attend closely to the words... samadhi arose naturally through his attentiveness to the words and the Buddha provided the missing information.
This relates to the OP's question: "Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?". While it's possible as seen from some suttas in the Canon, one'd have to question how common are the cases? Just like it's possible to start solving problems in calculus or differential equation, or composing symphony orchestra music before one reaches middle-school age, but there simply aren't that many Mozart, von Neumann, or Terence Tao in this world. So, possible? Yes; common? No.
BrokenBones wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:25 am
It's one of my favourites because Suppabuddha had no prior training, no meditative practice and no 'meditative practice' was given by the Buddha, Suppabuddha simply had to attend closely to the words... samadhi arose naturally through his attentiveness to the words and the Buddha provided the missing information.
This relates to the OP's question: "Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?". While it's possible as seen from some suttas in the Canon, one'd have to question how common are the cases? Just like it's possible to start solving problems in calculus or differential equation, or composing symphony orchestra music before one reaches middle-school age, but there simply aren't that many Mozart, von Neumann, or Terence Tao in this world. So, possible? Yes; common? No.
The OP asks if it's possible... the answer is yes.
Trying to guess how common it is, is just papanca... it's needless information for the individual.
Have you any proofs it is uncommon? Have I any proof it is common? No. The fact the Buddha frequently shows it is possible should be enough.
Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:41 am
This is plain wrong. When Buddha taught topics such as aggregates and elements, that belong to the realm of Abhidhamma.
Furthermore, the presence of Abhidhamma is already well proved in Suttanta Pitaka.
And to the PO, simply listening to Dhamma won't help to achieve Sotapanna.
Wow you're plainly wrong. I'm clearly with Thanisaro in this one. You should study first on how the structure of holy scriptures work.
Maybe you mistaken Theravada (Doctrine of the Elders) with Christianity. Perhaps you are the one that need to study how Pali canon arrange into existence.
Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:41 am
This is plain wrong. When Buddha taught topics such as aggregates and elements, that belong to the realm of Abhidhamma.
Furthermore, the presence of Abhidhamma is already well proved in Suttanta Pitaka.
And to the PO, simply listening to Dhamma won't help to achieve Sotapanna.
Wow you're plainly wrong. I'm clearly with Thanisaro in this one. You should study first on how the structure of holy scriptures work.
Maybe you mistaken Theravada (Doctrine of the Elders) with Christianity. Perhaps you are the one that need to study how Pali canon arrange into existence.
How do you explain away the sutta I quoted? There are many more where listening to the Dhamma results in stream entry... the most famous one being Sariputta himself.
The teachings of aggregates and elements does not make it the domain of the Abhidhamma sect. One could argue that the mention of Buddhas in tantra makes them legit teachings.
Wow you're plainly wrong. I'm clearly with Thanisaro in this one. You should study first on how the structure of holy scriptures work.
Maybe you mistaken Theravada (Doctrine of the Elders) with Christianity. Perhaps you are the one that need to study how Pali canon arrange into existence.
How do you explain away the sutta I quoted? There are many more where listening to the Dhamma results in stream entry... the most famous one being Sariputta himself.
The teachings of aggregates and elements does not make it the domain of the Abhidhamma sect. One could argue that the mention of Buddhas in tantra makes them legit teachings.
In giving a sermon ,the learned bikku always adopts a system. One to make all listeners to be seated on the floor or the lowest possible seat . This is Indriya sila and is meant to concentrate . Next is to quote the subject of sermon with a pali verse and then to explain . This is for the concentration of listening . Further to quote a jataka story related to the subject . Then along the sermon to question from listeners of the sermon . Finally suggestions to be on the correct path of damma.
This is making the listeners of damma to be engaged on sila and a bhavana (meditation in listening without deviation of attention or which is manasikara ) . This I believe is the way one can be a stream enterer by listening .
In giving a sermon ,the learned bikku always adopts a system. One to make all listeners to be seated on the floor or the lowest possible seat . This is Indriya sila and is meant to concentrate . Next is to quote the subject of sermon with a pali verse and then to explain . This is for the concentration of listening . Further to quote a jataka story related to the subject . Then along the sermon to question from listeners of the sermon . Finally suggestions to be on the correct path of damma.
This is making the listeners of damma to be engaged on sila and a bhavana (meditation in listening without deviation of attention or which is manasikara ) . This I believe is the way one can be a stream enterer by listening .
sunnat wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:05 am
Rain on a Mountaintop
“Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full.
So too, associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma.
Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith.
Faith, becoming full, fills up wise attention. Wise attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four applications of mindfulness. The four applications of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of awakening. The seven factors of awakening, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.”
If it was just a matter of listening to the dhamma there would be many who have entered the stream today, here, now. But that is not the case. It depends completely on past and present practice. If those conditions are right then if one is fortunate enough to hear the right discourse at the right time it may help to maintain the right mindset and let go into the stream.
The first thing that happens when one sits down to listen to words of The Dhamma is that one is refraining from harmful actions of mind, voice and body (sila, the precepts) during the discourse. The second one is that one focuses in on the words spoken (samadhi, concentration, stillness). The third is that if the conditions are right depending on conditions (past training) true knowledge arises. This is the opposite of ignorance of the workings of the inner mind body phenomenon. This true knowledge, wisdom, panna, is a result of practicing in-sight meditation. The discourse provides the conditions for this to happen if there is little dust in the eyes.
Perhaps you are the one that need to study how Pali canon arrange into existence.