Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
BrokenBones
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by BrokenBones »

The Buddha's gradual teaching to laypeople takes them through the arising of faith, joy etc and the insight pathway to stream entry.
Lal
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by Lal »

1. Stream entry (Sotapanna) stage is arrived at by "seeing the worldview of the Buddha." It is called "removal by vision" or "dassanena pahātabbā."
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.3.1/pli/ms ... latin#22.1

It says: "Katame dhammā dassanena pahātabbā? Tīṇi saññojanāni—sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso."
- That means the first three samyojana (sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso) are removed, and the stream entry is attained by "dassanena pahātabbā."
- That happens when one learns the correct Buddha Dhamma from an Ariya or a Noble Person (one who has attained at least the Steam Entry.)
- The point is that "Stream entry is POSSIBLE only by listening to or learning from a Noble Person." One has to learn the "previously unheard Dhamma of a Buddha" from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Budha who has understood that Dhamma.

2. It is only after that one needs to engage in "formal meditation" (bhāvanāya pahātabbā) and remove the remaining seven samyojana.
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.3.1/pli/ms ... latin#27.1
It says: "Katame dhammā bhāvanāya pahātabbā? Avaseso lobho, doso, moho; tadekaṭṭhā ca kilesā;taṁsampayutto vedanākkhandho …pe… viññāṇakkhandho;taṁsamuṭṭhānaṁ kāyakammaṁ, vacīkammaṁ, manokammaṁ—ime dhammā bhāvanāya pahātabbā."
- One cannot engage in formal meditation successfully without knowing what to meditate on.
- Of course, one can do the non-Buddhist "breath meditation" and experience a calming of the mind. That will not help to get to Nibbana.
santa100
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by santa100 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:30 am
santa100 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:34 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:25 am It's one of my favourites because Suppabuddha had no prior training, no meditative practice and no 'meditative practice' was given by the Buddha, Suppabuddha simply had to attend closely to the words... samadhi arose naturally through his attentiveness to the words and the Buddha provided the missing information.
This relates to the OP's question: "Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?". While it's possible as seen from some suttas in the Canon, one'd have to question how common are the cases? Just like it's possible to start solving problems in calculus or differential equation, or composing symphony orchestra music before one reaches middle-school age, but there simply aren't that many Mozart, von Neumann, or Terence Tao in this world. So, possible? Yes; common? No.
The OP asks if it's possible... the answer is yes.

Trying to guess how common it is, is just papanca... it's needless information for the individual.

Have you any proofs it is uncommon? Have I any proof it is common? No. The fact the Buddha frequently shows it is possible should be enough.
Have i any proofs it is uncommon? No. Can I make a logical inference looking at the cases of Mozart, von Neumann, or Terence Tao? Absolutely Yes.... unless you're trying to say that attaining Sotapanna-hood, a supra-mundane attainment is way easier than the ability to start solving problems in calculus, differential equation, or composing symphony orchestra before middle-school age, all extraordinary feats apparently, but still mundane/worldly achievements nonetheless.
BrokenBones
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by BrokenBones »

santa100 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:17 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:30 am
santa100 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:34 am
This relates to the OP's question: "Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?". While it's possible as seen from some suttas in the Canon, one'd have to question how common are the cases? Just like it's possible to start solving problems in calculus or differential equation, or composing symphony orchestra music before one reaches middle-school age, but there simply aren't that many Mozart, von Neumann, or Terence Tao in this world. So, possible? Yes; common? No.
The OP asks if it's possible... the answer is yes.

Trying to guess how common it is, is just papanca... it's needless information for the individual.

Have you any proofs it is uncommon? Have I any proof it is common? No. The fact the Buddha frequently shows it is possible should be enough.
Have i any proofs it is uncommon? No. Can I make a logical inference looking at the cases of Mozart, von Neumann, or Terence Tao? Absolutely Yes.... unless you're trying to say that attaining Sotapanna-hood, a supra-mundane attainment is way easier than the ability to start solving problems in calculus, differential equation, or composing symphony orchestra before middle-school age, all extraordinary feats apparently, but still mundane/worldly achievements nonetheless.
I think you've lost yourself in your own analogy... you've certainly lost me.
santa100
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by santa100 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:20 pm I think you've lost yourself in your own analogy... you've certainly lost me.
Then you'll have to explain why you think that is the case.
auto
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:25 am There are many suttas where householders are taught Dhamma and by contemplating the words being spoken achieve Sotapanna. My favourite is...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear,
ready, malleable, free of hindrances. It is this,
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: They know: ‘With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as neutral, the corresponding neutral feeling ceases and stops.’
There remains only equanimity, pure, bright, pliable, workable, and radiant.
renunciate equanimity what transcends sight, sound etc.

You can become sotapanna by hearing. Savaka overall is called hearer except arhant since he personally achieves nibbana at cessation of perception and feeling, at least i believe the context of why arhant is not hearer is that.
So if to follow what mn140 further says, it is for becoming savaka arhant.
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zerotime
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by zerotime »

Lal wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:45 pm 1. Stream entry (Sotapanna) stage is arrived at by "seeing the worldview of the Buddha." It is called "removal by vision" or "dassanena pahātabbā."
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.3.1/pli/ms ... latin#22.1

It says: "Katame dhammā dassanena pahātabbā? Tīṇi saññojanāni—sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso."
- That means the first three samyojana (sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso) are removed, and the stream entry is attained by "dassanena pahātabbā."
- That happens when one learns the correct Buddha Dhamma from an Ariya or a Noble Person (one who has attained at least the Steam Entry.)
- The point is that "Stream entry is POSSIBLE only by listening to or learning from a Noble Person." One has to learn the "previously unheard Dhamma of a Buddha" from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Budha who has understood that Dhamma.

2. It is only after that one needs to engage in "formal meditation" (bhāvanāya pahātabbā) and remove the remaining seven samyojana.
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.3.1/pli/ms ... latin#27.1
It says: "Katame dhammā bhāvanāya pahātabbā? Avaseso lobho, doso, moho; tadekaṭṭhā ca kilesā;taṁsampayutto vedanākkhandho …pe… viññāṇakkhandho;taṁsamuṭṭhānaṁ kāyakammaṁ, vacīkammaṁ, manokammaṁ—ime dhammā bhāvanāya pahātabbā."
- One cannot engage in formal meditation successfully without knowing what to meditate on.
- Of course, one can do the non-Buddhist "breath meditation" and experience a calming of the mind. That will not help to get to Nibbana.
fully agree. Just to add the arising of printed books caused a new possibility to learn from true disciples of the Buddha
BrokenBones
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Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by BrokenBones »

santa100 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:29 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:20 pm I think you've lost yourself in your own analogy... you've certainly lost me.
Then you'll have to explain why you think that is the case.
I can't possibly explain your confusion.
santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Stream entry by simply listening to the dhamma: possible?

Post by santa100 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:51 pm I can't possibly explain your confusion.
Then neither can I to yours.
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