Theravada view of women

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
TRobinson465
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:45 pm
Who cares about what women are attracted to? The main teaching on the caste system was that any male of any caste is still viewed as like higher than any high caste female...they're like low class.
No. the main teaching on the caste system is the caste system is nonsensical. Deeds make the person, not the birth. The Buddha was literally known for his critique of the caste system at the time.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:28 pm
SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:45 pm Who cares about what women are attracted to? The main teaching on the caste system was that any male of any caste is still viewed as like higher than any high caste female...they're like low class.

Women get rowdy, aggressive, argumentative, angry...it would've been better if Ananda never requested that they joined the order...we could've just had a happy healthy society with no violence and stuff.
Are you saying that our societies are not healthy and happy and are prone to violence because women were allowed to ordain?
Agreed, how on earth are you coming to these conclusions? And you accuse us of reading in our personal biases into the suttas? This second part is just utter nonsense.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Ontheway
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Ontheway »

Men and women are the same in terms of achieving Nibbāna. No difference in the eyes of Buddha and Theravada.

I think this topic can be closed and need no further discussion.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Mumfie »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:53 am Men and women are the same in terms of achieving Nibbāna. No difference in the eyes of Buddha and Theravada.
Does the Buddha ever say that there is no difference in men's and women's potential for attaining nibbāna?

I know it's often claimed that, "The Buddha taught that both sexes are equally capable of attaining enlightenment." However, in the discourse that most people have in mind when they claim this (i.e., the Gotamī Sutta) the Buddha speaks merely of women's potential for attaining the four ariyan fruits. He doesn't express any view at all as to whether this potential is equal to a man's, or inferior or superior.
Then the Venerable Ānanda said to the Blessed One: “Bhante, if a woman were to go forth from the household life into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata, would it be possible for her to realize the fruit of stream-entry, the fruit of once-returning, the fruit of non-returning, and the fruit of arahantship?”

“It would be possible, Ānanda.”

(AN8.51)
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by SecretSage »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:58 pm
SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:45 pm it would've been better if Ananda never requested that they joined the order
better for who
I'm saying it's better for achieving arahantship...allowing women to join caused the pure dhamma to not last as long.
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:28 pm
SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:45 pm Who cares about what women are attracted to? The main teaching on the caste system was that any male of any caste is still viewed as like higher than any high caste female...they're like low class.

Women get rowdy, aggressive, argumentative, angry...it would've been better if Ananda never requested that they joined the order...we could've just had a happy healthy society with no violence and stuff.
Are you saying that our societies are not healthy and happy and are prone to violence because women were allowed to ordain?
Well kind of but not exactly.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:22 pm For sure.

My mother send me a little video (in Russian) soon after the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. In it a young girl asks her grandmother, "Granny, is it true that this war is women's fault?" "Of course it is, sweetie, ' says the Granny. "Just look at all these idiots we brought into this world."

And in the same way, women are also at fault for this conversation. Aren't they? ;)
There are varying different causes of war I think things would be more peaceful if women were viewed as like different. We could end violence and warfare.
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:23 am
SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:45 pm
Who cares about what women are attracted to? The main teaching on the caste system was that any male of any caste is still viewed as like higher than any high caste female...they're like low class.
No. the main teaching on the caste system is the caste system is nonsensical. Deeds make the person, not the birth. The Buddha was literally known for his critique of the caste system at the time.
Well the first point made in the caste system debate was the obvious physical differences between male and female...modern science supports this as males and females are more genetically distant from each other than any male-male or female-female homo sapien...meaning a high caste male is more genetically closer to a low caste male than to any high caste female.
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:28 pm
SecretSage wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:45 pm Who cares about what women are attracted to? The main teaching on the caste system was that any male of any caste is still viewed as like higher than any high caste female...they're like low class.

Women get rowdy, aggressive, argumentative, angry...it would've been better if Ananda never requested that they joined the order...we could've just had a happy healthy society with no violence and stuff.
Are you saying that our societies are not healthy and happy and are prone to violence because women were allowed to ordain?
Agreed, how on earth are you coming to these conclusions? And you accuse us of reading in our personal biases into the suttas? This second part is just utter nonsense.
My reading of Theravada suttas clearly shows a big difference between male and female.

Growing up I viewed women as equals until I started having more direct experiences with women and learning more about science and the physical differences between male and female.

There's studies that show women are more prone to insulting people, being indirectly aggressive.
Then studies showing that women prefer bad boys or want males to act bad and aggressive.

But regardless there are big physical differences between male and female so they cannot be viewed as equal.

It became my belief that for the welfare and happiness of the world it would be better if women were viewed as like different. Probably in the future once things become better in terms of health and happiness women will be viewed as like more different than now.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Radix »

SecretSage wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:39 pmThere are varying different causes of war I think things would be more peaceful if women were viewed as like different. We could end violence and warfare.
Talk about a whole new meaning of the term f***.
It became my belief that for the welfare and happiness of the world it would be better if women were viewed as like different. Probably in the future once things become better in terms of health and happiness women will be viewed as like more different than now.
I heard the sages of old, in order not to defile themselves with women, but still produce offspring (sons, of course), would place their semen in clay jars and incubate them there, so that the sons were conceived and born immaculately.


But by all means, an important topic, a dispute that has been going on for millennia. Clearly, there must be something to it.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

SecretSage wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:39 pm
Well the first point made in the caste system debate was the obvious physical differences between male and female...modern science supports this as males and females are more genetically distant from each other than any male-male or female-female homo sapien...meaning a high caste male is more genetically closer to a low caste male than to any high caste female.
Yeah well. You are right someone with two X chromosomes has more in common genetically with another person with two X chromosomes than someone with one X and one Y chromosome. I never read it that way tho. I just read it as it's an issue despite caste. And in no other analogy he uses in that sutta does he say other groups such as Greeks or Persians or people who break precepts are "lower" caste. Again he was pretty anti-caste in most suttas where he discusses it. He's saying these things prove the folly of caste at all. Not that brahmins arent truly the higher caste because women are akin to lower caste.

My reading of Theravada suttas clearly shows a big difference between male and female.

Growing up I viewed women as equals until I started having more direct experiences with women and learning more about science and the physical differences between male and female.

There's studies that show women are more prone to insulting people, being indirectly aggressive.
Then studies showing that women prefer bad boys or want males to act bad and aggressive.

But regardless there are big physical differences between male and female so they cannot be viewed as equal.

It became my belief that for the welfare and happiness of the world it would be better if women were viewed as like different. Probably in the future once things become better in terms of health and happiness women will be viewed as like more different than now.
Well thanks for being honest about your background. If that's the case you shouldn't dismiss other ppls interpretations of the suttas as "reading in" their subjective opinion about women, as you are admitting to doing just that.

I do agree with you that ppl nowadays have kinda gone off the deep end on the equality thing. Imo women should be treated as equals from the POV of rights and opportunities. But a lot of ppl today are so caught up on the post civil rights high that they pretend there are no biological differences between women and men and this is just delusional. It is possible to both treat women fairly and acknowledge that they menstruate, are physically weaker than men in general, and have various biological differences. Equality does not mean the same. Women are different and should be seen as such. But different doesn't mean inferior.

Many of the things you highlight are true but they are societal to an extent. Women do act in many of those ways but because they experience the world differently, due to how society views/treats them, due to being physically weaker than men and having to find ways to get by having that disadvantage, etc. Not to say that there isn't a biological aspect to some of the things you highlight, as I'm sure higher levels of estrogen and whatnot play a role. For sure men committing the vast majority of violent crime is probably due to higher testosterone levels so we should acknowledge there is a biological element in some of women's behavior too. But a lot of it is societal.

In the US, African Americans make up 13% of the population but commit 50% of the murder. But this isn't biological, it's entirely societal and cultural. Studies show African immigrants are some of the most successful in the US and putting a black kid in a white or Asian majority school significantly increases their chance of success than if the same kid was put in an intercity school. The high crime rate is due to societal factors (poverty, culture of no father's in the household, glorification of black gangster culture in the media, etc) and even the Buddha says biological marks cannot be used to identify a person's behavior.
Animals are divided by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.3
You know grasses & trees,

even though they don’t proclaim themselves:

Their distinguishing markings are made by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.

Then beetles & moths, down to white ants:

Their distinguishing markings are made by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.

You know four-footed beasts,

small & large:

Their distinguishing markings are made by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.

You know belly-footed, long-backed snakes:

Their distinguishing markings are made by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.

Then you know fish in the water, with water their range:

Their distinguishing markings are made by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.

Then you know birds, with wings as their vehicles,

coursing through the sky:

Their distinguishing markings are made by nature,

for their species differ, one from another.

While these species

have many distinguishing marks

made by nature,

human beings don’t

have many distinguishing marks

made by nature:

not through hair or head

not through ears or eyes,

not through face or nose,

not through mouth or lips,

not through neck or shoulders,

not through belly or back,

not through buttocks or chest,

not through groin or intercourse,

not through hands or feet,

not through fingers or nails,

not through calves or thighs,

not through complexion or voice.

Their distinguishing mark is not made by nature

as it is for other species.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/StNp/StNp3_9.html
Even the allowing women to ordain thing, the Buddha said it would shorten the lifespan of the true Dhamma. But in the reason he gives it's not the fault of women's behavior it's the fault of how people treat women. "A household full of women is easily destroyed by thieves and bandits" (an external problem) Personally I think hes right. Many of the extra rules for Bhikkhuni were made in response to Bhikkhuni being raped. And there are suttas where even the Buddhas top Bhikkhuni, khema and uppalavanna, state it is difficult to get necessities as a nun because ppl in India at the time rarely offered necessities to female monastics. Allowing women into the order caused a bunch of problems, but mostly due to how ppl treated women back then. Chalking up everything to biology is simplistic and doesn't look at the wider picture. Some things are biological, some societal, some cultural, some just the result of power dynamics.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Mumfie »

SecretSage wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm He seemed to have no issue with any male of any caste joining the order of monks but had a really big issue with women joining, only after Ananda requesting 3 times and debating did The Buddha allow women to join:
I disagree.

The fact that the Buddha did eventually grant Ānanda's petition suggests that it wasn't "a really big issue". Had it been a really big issue, we should expect it to have met with the same curt dismissal as Ānanda's petition on behalf of the repentant Vajjian monks who had been expelled for sexual intercourse:
[Vajjians]:

“Venerable Ānanda, we don’t blame the Buddha, the Teaching, or the Order; we only blame ourselves. We were unfortunate and had little merit: after going forth in such a well-proclaimed Teaching and training, we were unable to practice for life the perfectly complete and pure spiritual life. If we were now to obtain the going forth and the full ordination in the presence of the Master, we would have clarity about wholesome qualities and would be devoted day after day to developing the aids to awakening. Venerable Ānanda, please inform the Master of this matter.”

“Yes,” he replied. And he went to the Master and informed him.

“It’s impossible, Ānanda, that the Buddha should abolish a training rule that entails expulsion because of the Vajjians.”
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by santa100 »

SecretSage wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:39 pm I'm saying it's better for achieving arahantship...allowing women to join caused the pure dhamma to not last as long.
This is one of the most common and most frequent mistake made by those who do not study the suttas carefully. See a previous thread that corrects this wrong view.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

santa100 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:59 pm
SecretSage wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:39 pm I'm saying it's better for achieving arahantship...allowing women to join caused the pure dhamma to not last as long.
This is one of the most common and most frequent mistake made by those who do not study the suttas carefully. See a previous thread that corrects this wrong view.
How interesting! I think the commentary you cite actually reinforces the very reason the Buddha gave for hesitating in the first place. From what I've seen at real life temples, the majority of the attendees are women. And at a lot of Mahayana temples I've visited the Bhikkhuni outnumber the Bhikkhus. In thich naht hanhs order they actually don't observe the garudhammas and they are constantly fundraising for bigger and bigger nunneries (but I hardly ever see them fundraise to expand their monk quarters) because so many women are ordaining.

By prescribing the garudhammas the Buddha likely prevented many women from ordaining because they were too proud to observe the garudhammas. Thus he kept the sangha from becoming like "a household of many women and few men, which is easily destroyed by thieves and bandits".
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by santa100 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:19 pm In thich naht hanhs order they actually don't observe the garudhammas and they are constantly fundraising for bigger and bigger nunneries (but I hardly ever see them fundraise to expand their monk quarters) because so many women are ordaining.
And that's the least of anyone's concern when visiting Thich Nhat Hanh's monasteries. A much bigger one, at least imho, is they rarely ever study the Suttas/Sutras but mostly focus on the work of their master Nhat Hanh. In some way, his writings have become the official suttas/sutras for that particular lineage and that certainly is some cause for concern in the eye of more orthodox Buddhist practitioners like the Theravadins. This is sorta similar to a few Chinese Chan sects which only study the Platform Sutra, which is the work of a Patriarch named Hui Neng, not the Buddha's work! Now I don't really have any issue with later masters' writings or the Platform Sutra, etc... but I'd much prefer Buddhist lineages to focus on the primary teaching of the original founder ( the Suttas/Sutras ), and use their specific master's work and writings as supplemental sources, not the other way around.
Last edited by santa100 on Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TRobinson465
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

santa100 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:39 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:19 pm In thich naht hanhs order they actually don't observe the garudhammas and they are constantly fundraising for bigger and bigger nunneries (but I hardly ever see them fundraise to expand their monk quarters) because so many women are ordaining.
And that's the least of anyone's concern when visiting Thich Nhat Hanh's monasteries. A much bigger one, at least imho, is they rarely ever study the Suttas/Sutras but mostly focus on the work of their master Nhat Hanh.
Oh for sure. Plum village temples are probably the most popular Buddhist monasteries in the west, very much because they focus on TNH's very modern new agey writings over more traditional Mahayana teachings the way other Mahayana orgs like fo guang shan do. So it's a bit of a trade off in the west. More popular among westerners, less authentic; more authentic, less popularity among westerners and the more you have to rely on the Buddhist immigrants population to support you. A very fine line of balance orgs have to manage. I have great respect for TNH popularizing mindfulness in the west but never became as devoted to his group cuz I felt they were adapting "too much" to appeal to westerners.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by salayatananirodha »

i recommend reading from ven anālayo who compares suttas to āgama parallels. here is an example on the ordination of women. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... japati.pdf
the account differs in the āgama regarding the buddha's allowance of women to go forth. also, the āgama parallel to the particular sutta you mentioned does not include that women can't be sammāsambuddhas. he finds plenty of examples of missing or conflicting accounts.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by pudai »

Unfortunately the Ananda sitta is abit out of context... three rounds of Anandas birth and death is the asking to admit it is not until Gautama sees Anandas mothers feet cracked swollen bleeding and blistered carrying Ananda did he submit to the entrance... Had Ananda known his mom was carrying him through the rounds of birth and death while his mind saw nothing but how ever long it took him to ask those three times... Anandas mother still in his heart was dragging her along and her feet showed it even though Ananda seemed oblivious to it being that way. Consider the koan: Who is dragging that corpse there? The realized know that If it's not yours then it's either your mother or fathers and that it is also due to desire and attachment that such suffering arises.

Women have a path that leads to their own enlightenment and still do... There wasn't anything wrong with their path other than the discrimination against it but I wouldn't say it was their fault more the fault of what gets called an inferior man that hasn't loosened or broken the bonds of the three poisons is more akin to being an animal in a man's body than human.

How women deal with that inferior male is none of my business,,, As said it is their path but what I can say is their path leads men to the dhamma and then abandons them on it altogether. Like the rice offering woman pulling skin and bones Gautama out of the Ganges when many probably mistaken it for a corpse... Her doing that is why Buddhism even exists so when people say there is mother of buddhism they should really think of her.

There goes another silly sadhu floating down the Ganges like dried wood... :toilet:
The six senses accommodate; All the factors of existence... The All.
Apart from; The All... Nothing exists.
The senses are empty of a self & what belongs to a self.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Enam »

SecretSage wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm I'm trying to compile a list of Theravada suttas where The Buddha talks about women and their disposition.

Women are viewed as lower in general but some times as better than men.

Did I miss any important Theravada suttas?
These suttas:
In every case where a family can hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons. Which four? They look for things that are lost. They repair things that have gotten old. They are moderate in consuming food and drink. They place a virtuous, principled woman or man in the position of authority. In every case where a family can hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.

"The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:

(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.

"In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
These suttas, where the wife was enlightened but the husband an average Joe:
And Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Once the Blessed One was staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. At that time, Nakula's father, the householder, was diseased, in pain, severely ill. Then Nakula's mother said to him: "Don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.

Now it may be that you are thinking, 'Nakula's mother will not reach firm ground in this Doctrine & Discipline, will not attain a firm foothold, will not attain consolation, overcome her doubts, dispel her perplexity, reach fearlessness or gain independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message,'[2] but you shouldn't see things in that way. To the extent that the Blessed One has white-clad householder female disciples who reach firm ground in this Doctrine & Discipline, attain a firm foothold, attain consolation, overcome their doubts, dispel their perplexity, reach fearlessness, & gain independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, I am one of them. If anyone doubts or denies this, let him go ask the Blessed One, the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one who is staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. So don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This sutta where the wife is a god and the husband is a wretch:
“And how does a wretch live together with a female deva? Here, the husband is one who destroys life … he insults and reviles ascetics and brahmins. But his wife is one who abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness; she is virtuous, of good character; she dwells at home with a heart free from the stain of miserliness; she does not insult or revile ascetics and brahmins. It is in such a way that a wretch lives together with a female deva.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.53/en/bodh ... ight=false
:smile:
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