Theravada view of women

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
SecretSage
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Theravada view of women

Post by SecretSage »

I'm trying to compile a list of Theravada suttas where The Buddha talks about women and their disposition.

Women are viewed as lower in general but some times as better than men.

Impossibility of a women being a Sammasambuddha, wheel-turning monarch, Sakka, Brahma-being, Mara, :
“It is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen for a woman to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. But it is possible for a man to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.”

“It is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen for a woman to be a wheel-turning monarch. But it is possible for a man to be a wheel-turning monarch.”

“It is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen for a woman to perform the role of Sakka, Māra, or Brahmā. But it is possible for a man to perform the role of Sakka, Māra, or Brahmā.” - AN 1.279–283
In the debate on the caste system The Buddha mentioned that high-caste women are still lower (as a flaw in the caste system):
“But Assalāyana, brahmin women are seen menstruating, being pregnant, giving birth, and breastfeeding. Yet even though they’re born from a brahmin womb they say: ‘Only brahmins are the highest caste; other castes are inferior." - MN 93
He seemed to have no issue with any male of any caste joining the order of monks but had a really big issue with women joining, only after Ananda requesting 3 times and debating did The Buddha allow women to join:
“Enough, Ānanda. Don’t advocate for females to gain the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One.”
....
A nun, even if she has been ordained for a hundred years, should bow down to a monk who was ordained that very day. She should rise up for him, greet him with joined palms, and observe proper etiquette toward him. This principle should be honored, respected, esteemed, and venerated, and not transgressed so long as life lasts.
...
From this day forth it is forbidden for nuns to criticize monks, but it is not forbidden for monks to criticize nuns. This principle should be honored, respected, esteemed, and venerated, and not transgressed so long as life lasts. If you accept these eight principles of respect, that will be your ordination.
...
Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years. But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long. The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.
...
It’s like a field full of rice. Once the disease called ‘white bones’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth. "
AN 8.51
Interesting to note that Ananda is also the same person who refused to ask The Buddha to stay alive until the eon ends even when hinted many times (also the same person blamed for allowing women to enter thereby causing the pure dhamma to last only 500 years).

When King Pasenadi was disappointed that he had a daughter instead of a son The Buddha said:
“Well, some women are better than men, O ruler of the people. Wise and virtuous, a devoted wife who honors her mother in law. " - SN 3.16
Then the majority of suttas I read are pretty negative against women.

The power of women is anger:
“Bhikkhus, there are these eight powers. What eight? (1) The power of children is weeping; (2) the power of women is anger; (3) the power of thieves is a weapon; (4) the power of kings is sovereignty; (5) the power of fools is to complain; (6) the power of the wise is to deliberate; (7) the power of the learned is reflection; (8) the power of ascetics and brahmins is patience. These are the eight powers.” - AN 8.27
Compared to black snakes:
“Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of a black snake. What five? It’s irritable, hostile, venomous, fork-tongued, and treacherous. These are the five dangers of a black snake.

In the same way there are five drawbacks of a female. What five? She’s irritable, hostile, venomous, fork-tongued, and treacherous. This is a female’s venom: usually she’s very lustful. This is a female’s forked tongue: usually she speaks divisively. This is a female’s treachery: usually she’s an adulteress. These are the five drawbacks of a female.” - AN 5.230
Did I miss any important Theravada suttas?
"You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way"
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Sam Vara
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Sam Vara »

I would strongly recommend the Therīgāthā, the verses spoken by the senior nuns. Not what the Buddha said, of course, but a testament to what Theravadan women can achieve, and I find many of them to be extremely moving.

Most of them are short, even fragmentary. Just dip in and enjoy!
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Mahabrahma »

Women are all Enlightened.

Men are still trying. :jumping:
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by befriend »

I think there's a sutta not sure that buddha said we should have compassion for women. I'll go look for it.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by DNS »

SecretSage wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm Then the majority of suttas I read are pretty negative against women.
I can't find it right now, but there was one of the previous discussions like this on how women are seen in the suttas and the poster showed one of the references to a passage warning of the allures of women. It was a warning to men. The poster argued that it always appears to be warning men of the dangers of women and not the other way around. We must remember that most of the time the Buddha's audience was men, especially bhikkhus. The poster insisted that there should have been at least some warning to women in the same way he warned men, if women have equal opportunity on the spiritual path.

And then MikeNZ found a passage that was exactly like the one that was quoted for warning men; but this time warning women of the allures of men and how they could get trapped by them.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:38 pm Women are all Enlightened.
This teaching says the opposite


They’re usually very lustful
dharmacorps
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by dharmacorps »

I find the suttas quite balanced in its criticism of men, women, and mostly just people in general. Women can put an end to suffering just the same as men so the rest is just window dressing ultimately.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by santa100 »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:30 pm I find the suttas quite balanced in its criticism of men, women, and mostly just people in general. Women can put an end to suffering just the same as men so the rest is just window dressing ultimately.
True.
AN 7.48 wrote:The Blessed One said: "A woman attends inwardly to her feminine faculties, her feminine gestures, her feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voice, feminine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, she attends outwardly to masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voices, masculine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, she wants to be bonded to what is outside her, wants whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Delighting, caught up in her femininity, a woman goes into bondage with reference to men. This is how a woman does not transcend her femininity.

"A man attends inwardly to his masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voice, masculine charms. He is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, he attends outwardly to feminine faculties, feminine gestures, feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voices, feminine charms. He is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, he wants to be bonded to what is outside him, wants whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Delighting, caught up in his masculinity, a man goes into bondage with reference to women. This is how a man does not transcend his masculinity.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by SarathW »

Impossibility of a women being a Sammasambuddha, wheel-turning monarch, Sakka, Brahma-being, Mara, :
- Consider if it is possible for any man today to become Buddha etc.
- What is your next birth? man or woman?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Sam Vara »

Contact with women is certainly something with the potential to hinder some men's spiritual progress:
At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants, “Mendicants!”

“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

“Mendicants, I do not see a single sight that occupies a man’s mind like the sight of a woman. The sight of a woman occupies a man’s mind.”

“Mendicants, I do not see a single sound that occupies a man’s mind like the sound of a woman.
...and so on for all five senses. But then again, the converse is also true:
Mendicants, I do not see a single sight that occupies a woman’s mind like the sight of a man. The sight of a man occupies a woman’s mind.”

“Mendicants, I do not see a single sound that occupies a woman’s mind like the sound of a man...(etc)
This seems to be the most general teaching about sexual desire and the subsidiary desires (for status, acceptance, etc.) it gives rise to. But, as has been said, everything depends on context in the teaching. And the context is normally one of teaching men.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by pipwa »

SecretSage wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm Impossibility of a women being a Sammasambuddha, wheel-turning monarch, Sakka, Brahma, Mara, :
Hi. The titles above sound singular, referring to one entity. Its about four single males over thousands of years of history; where some of these entities sound merely mythological.
“But Assalāyana, brahmin women are seen menstruating, being pregnant, giving birth, and breastfeeding. Yet even though they’re born from a brahmin womb they say: ‘Only brahmins are the highest caste; other castes are inferior." - MN 93
I read MN 93. This does not indicate a derogatory statement about women. It just refutes the Brahmin view they are born from Brahma's mouth rather than, in reality, born from the wombs of women.
He seemed to have no issue with any male of any caste joining the order of monks but had a really big issue with women joining
Monks were free to wander around. I once heard many monks were killed on their missionary journeys. A Buddha would not want to subject women to this because their families would get upset. Men are generally sent to war to die rather than women.
“Well, some women are better than men, O ruler of the people. Wise and virtuous, a devoted wife who honors her mother in law. " - SN 3.16
Yes.
Then the majority of suttas I read are pretty negative against women.
How can this be if you have not read all of the suttas?
“Bhikkhus, there are these eight powers. What eight? (1) The power of children is weeping; (2) the power of women is anger; (3) the power of thieves is a weapon; (4) the power of kings is sovereignty; (5) the power of fools is to complain; (6) the power of the wise is to deliberate; (7) the power of the learned is reflection; (8) the power of ascetics and brahmins is patience. These are the eight powers.” - AN 8.27
Why do you view this quote as negative? Do you think it is better for women to be meek & submissive? Indeed, the power of women is getting angry at men. Have you never experienced the benefit (if you are a man) of a women getting angry at you? My greatest lessons in life came from women getting angry at me. Do you want women to be meek & submissive?
“Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of a black snake. What five? It’s irritable, hostile, venomous, fork-tongued, and treacherous. These are the five dangers of a black snake.

In the same way there are five drawbacks of a female. What five? She’s irritable, hostile, venomous, fork-tongued, and treacherous. This is a female’s venom: usually she’s very lustful. This is a female’s forked tongue: usually she speaks divisively. This is a female’s treachery: usually she’s an adulteress. These are the five drawbacks of a female.” - AN 5.230
If a snake is related to/handled improperly/unskillfully, it is dangerous to a man. Again, do you expect women to be meek & submissive?
Did I miss any important Theravada suttas?
Probably. I found these on the internet:
Mendicants, there are these five powers of a female. What five? Attractiveness, wealth, relatives, children, and ethical behavior. These are the five powers of a female. A female living at home with these five powers has her husband under her thumb.” SN 37.26

“Mendicants, there are these five powers of a female. What five? Attractiveness, wealth, relatives, children, and ethical behavior. These are the five powers of a female. A female living at home with these five powers has her husband under her mastery.” SN 37.27
Why don't you ask the Buddhist married men here if their collective wives have them under their collective thumbs? :D
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

DNS wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:49 pm
SecretSage wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm Then the majority of suttas I read are pretty negative against women.
I can't find it right now, but there was one of the previous discussions like this on how women are seen in the suttas and the poster showed one of the references to a passage warning of the allures of women. It was a warning to men. The poster argued that it always appears to be warning men of the dangers of women and not the other way around. We must remember that most of the time the Buddha's audience was men, especially bhikkhus. The poster insisted that there should have been at least some warning to women in the same way he warned men, if women have equal opportunity on the spiritual path.

And then MikeNZ found a passage that was exactly like the one that was quoted for warning men; but this time warning women of the allures of men and how they could get trapped by them.
Yes someone told me he talks bad about women when addressing bhikkhus/men to make a point. and then talks bad about men when addressing women. From what ive seen the negative remarks about women tend to outnumber remarks about men, but this is because the Buddha is addressing men in most suttas.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theravada view of women

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“Bhikkhus, there are these eight powers. What eight? (1) The power of children is weeping; (2) the power of women is anger; (3) the power of thieves is a weapon; (4) the power of kings is sovereignty; (5) the power of fools is to complain; (6) the power of the wise is to deliberate; (7) the power of the learned is reflection; (8) the power of ascetics and brahmins is patience. These are the eight powers.” - AN 8.27
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned :rofl:

Although from what one of my female friends told me. women do tend to be much more ferocious than men when angry and that is why thier husbands/boyfriends would dote on them as to avoid thier wrath. That's pretty similar to the power of children is weeping (since a child crying tends to elicit a response from others) and the power of kings is sovereignty imo.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:34 am
“Bhikkhus, there are these eight powers. What eight? (1) The power of children is weeping; (2) the power of women is anger; ...
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned :rofl:

Although from what one of my female friends told me. women do tend to be much more ferocious than men when angry and that is why thier husbands/boyfriends would dote on them as to avoid thier wrath. That's pretty similar to the power of children is weeping (since a child crying tends to elicit a response from others)
Anger is typically an expression of frustration and powerlessness, so it makes sense that women (generally less powerful members of society than men) end up claiming their power there. Similarly for weeping, which can be a sign of powerlessness and makes sense in kids (as does anger). These are effective strategies if you greatly depend on other people for getting things done.

It makes sense to me that in more egalitarian societies (like Northern Europe) the women are emotionally cooler and stereotypically seen as 'ice queens', they already have a lot of power relative to men. The ideal male archetype has changed there as well. While in more traditional/patriarchal societies there's a strong fierce mama female archetype and the male ideal is more stereotypically masculine too.

I mention this because I sometimes taste a hint of essentialism in this sort of question, like there is something inherent to femaleness and maleness that affects people's (moral) character. When these differences can be understood well enough by looking at our physical (& biological) reality and the way we have shaped society together.
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Re: Theravada view of women

Post by TRobinson465 »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:17 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:34 am
“Bhikkhus, there are these eight powers. What eight? (1) The power of children is weeping; (2) the power of women is anger; ...
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned :rofl:

Although from what one of my female friends told me. women do tend to be much more ferocious than men when angry and that is why thier husbands/boyfriends would dote on them as to avoid thier wrath. That's pretty similar to the power of children is weeping (since a child crying tends to elicit a response from others)
Anger is typically an expression of frustration and powerlessness, so it makes sense that women (generally less powerful members of society than men) end up claiming their power there. Similarly for weeping, which can be a sign of powerlessness and makes sense in kids (as does anger). These are effective strategies if you greatly depend on other people for getting things done.
Oh wow. That makes a lot of sense.

Are you a woman? Or do you just a male who has good insights on this?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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