Women represent the ending of the pure dhamma...women are a sign that the end of something good has come.Radix wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:17 pmTalk about a whole new meaning of the term f***.SecretSage wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:39 pmThere are varying different causes of war I think things would be more peaceful if women were viewed as like different. We could end violence and warfare.
I heard the sages of old, in order not to defile themselves with women, but still produce offspring (sons, of course), would place their semen in clay jars and incubate them there, so that the sons were conceived and born immaculately.It became my belief that for the welfare and happiness of the world it would be better if women were viewed as like different. Probably in the future once things become better in terms of health and happiness women will be viewed as like more different than now.
But by all means, an important topic, a dispute that has been going on for millennia. Clearly, there must be something to it.
Right after the feminist movements began in the late 1800s so did World War I begin and then World War II, then also many other issues like the introduction of useless technology causing pollution, poisoning, killing animals, and other issues in society.
Now in modern times men and women are being viewed as more equal than ever...the life expectancy refuses to increase even with so many advances in science it's still the same as during Gautama's time 2,500 years ago around the 70s/80s eliminating deaths connected to the infant mortality rate, physical injuries, and drugs. COVID-19 just happened reducing the life expectancy in many countries.
Looks like global pollution and infertility are upcoming issues.
I expect many issues to exist in the world until virtue and good kamma increases and women start automatically being viewed as different.
If we were to increase virtue and good kamma automatically women would start being viewed as like different.
Study after study shows that most women are not attracted to nice guys this means one of the main reasons males don't act nice is because they know they won't attract women if they were to act virtuous and peaceful.
Well based on my unbiased reading of the suttas I don't understand how anyone can think that The Buddha considered male and female as like equals it's just junk from pro-women and feminist authors.Well thanks for being honest about your background. If that's the case you shouldn't dismiss other ppls interpretations of the suttas as "reading in" their subjective opinion about women, as you are admitting to doing just that.
I do agree with you that ppl nowadays have kinda gone off the deep end on the equality thing. Imo women should be treated as equals from the POV of rights and opportunities. But a lot of ppl today are so caught up on the post civil rights high that they pretend there are no biological differences between women and men and this is just delusional. It is possible to both treat women fairly and acknowledge that they menstruate, are physically weaker than men in general, and have various biological differences. Equality does not mean the same. Women are different and should be seen as such. But different doesn't mean inferior.
Many of the things you highlight are true but they are societal to an extent. Women do act in many of those ways but because they experience the world differently, due to how society views/treats them, due to being physically weaker than men and having to find ways to get by having that disadvantage, etc. Not to say that there isn't a biological aspect to some of the things you highlight, as I'm sure higher levels of estrogen and whatnot play a role. For sure men committing the vast majority of violent crime is probably due to higher testosterone levels so we should acknowledge there is a biological element in some of women's behavior too. But a lot of it is societal.
Modern science and biology more supports that male and female aren't equal.
I did research into aggression and found that a lot of aggressive behavior is caused by negative early childhood memories from age 5 and earlier (by age 5 humans reach around 90% of their adult brain size).In the US, African Americans make up 13% of the population but commit 50% of the murder. But this isn't biological, it's entirely societal and cultural. Studies show African immigrants are some of the most successful in the US and putting a black kid in a white or Asian majority school significantly increases their chance of success than if the same kid was put in an intercity school. The high crime rate is due to societal factors (poverty, culture of no father's in the household, glorification of black gangster culture in the media, etc) and even the Buddha says biological marks cannot be used to identify a person's behavior.
Negative unconscious memories like memories being spanked or harshly disciplined causes aggressive and violent behavior.
Then younger people commit proportionally the most crime according to every crime statistic...younger people have parts of their brains linked to decision making undeveloped according to neuroscience and biology.
This means more violent crime from African Americans in the US is easily explained by:
- US Black kids being spanked the most
- US Blacks having a lower median age and proportionally more younger people than other groups
Many Christian, Muslim, and Communist groups support spanking kids as well hopefully in the future they won't.
Recent research in modern biology is showing more differences between male and female than expected. Besides genetic differences around a third of the genome is expressed differently in male and female https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/artic ... 017-0352-z.TRobinson465 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:37 pm Yeah well. You are right someone with two X chromosomes has more in common genetically with another person with two X chromosomes than someone with one X and one Y chromosome. I never read it that way tho. I just read it as it's an issue despite caste. And in no other analogy he uses in that sutta does he say other groups such as Greeks or Persians or people who break precepts are "lower" caste. Again he was pretty anti-caste in most suttas where he discusses it. He's saying these things prove the folly of caste at all. Not that brahmins arent truly the higher caste because women are akin to lower caste.
Based on modern biology male and female cannot be viewed as equal.
Some biologists think that biology will cause men and women to be viewed as more differently in the future.
But how? That commentary is just nonsensical.santa100 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:59 pmThis is one of the most common and most frequent mistake made by those who do not study the suttas carefully. See a previous thread that corrects this wrong view.SecretSage wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:39 pm I'm saying it's better for achieving arahantship...allowing women to join caused the pure dhamma to not last as long.
Very rarely does The Buddha refuse to do something even after being requested 3 times...he still refused Ananda three times and only agreed when Ananda asked differently then agreed with the eight precepts.
It's not out of context it's in context...just some pro-women or pro-feminist groups trying to view men and women as physically the same.pudai wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:13 am Unfortunately the Ananda sitta is abit out of context... three rounds of Anandas birth and death is the asking to admit it is not until Gautama sees Anandas mothers feet cracked swollen bleeding and blistered carrying Ananda did he submit to the entrance... Had Ananda known his mom was carrying him through the rounds of birth and death while his mind saw nothing but how ever long it took him to ask those three times... Anandas mother still in his heart was dragging her along and her feet showed it even though Ananda seemed oblivious to it being that way. Consider the koan: Who is dragging that corpse there? The realized know that If it's not yours then it's either your mother or fathers and that it is also due to desire and attachment that such suffering arises.
Women have a path that leads to their own enlightenment and still do... There wasn't anything wrong with their path other than the discrimination against it but I wouldn't say it was their fault more the fault of what gets called an inferior man that hasn't loosened or broken the bonds of the three poisons is more akin to being an animal in a man's body than human.
How women deal with that inferior male is none of my business,,, As said it is their path but what I can say is their path leads men to the dhamma and then abandons them on it altogether. Like the rice offering woman pulling skin and bones Gautama out of the Ganges when many probably mistaken it for a corpse... Her doing that is why Buddhism even exists so when people say there is mother of buddhism they should really think of her.
There goes another silly sadhu floating down the Ganges like dried wood...
Superiority and inferiority are subjective opinions for arahantship and enlightenment it would be better if male and female weren't viewed as equals.
The context is:
....“Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years. But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long. The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.
It’s like those families with many women and few men. They’re easy prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.
It’s like a field full of rice. Once the disease called ‘white bones’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.
It’s like a field full of sugar cane. Once the disease called ‘red rot’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth. - AN 8.51
I do think that women can be superior to men in certain conditions just as Theravada says....but they're still like different.Enam wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:41 amThese suttas:SecretSage wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:57 pm I'm trying to compile a list of Theravada suttas where The Buddha talks about women and their disposition.
Women are viewed as lower in general but some times as better than men.
Did I miss any important Theravada suttas?In every case where a family can hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons. Which four? They look for things that are lost. They repair things that have gotten old. They are moderate in consuming food and drink. They place a virtuous, principled woman or man in the position of authority. In every case where a family can hold onto its great wealth for long, it is for one or another of these four reasons."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.htmlThese suttas, where the wife was enlightened but the husband an average Joe:"In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:
(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.
"The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:
(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.
"In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
And Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.htmlThis sutta where the wife is a god and the husband is a wretch:Once the Blessed One was staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. At that time, Nakula's father, the householder, was diseased, in pain, severely ill. Then Nakula's mother said to him: "Don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.
Now it may be that you are thinking, 'Nakula's mother will not reach firm ground in this Doctrine & Discipline, will not attain a firm foothold, will not attain consolation, overcome her doubts, dispel her perplexity, reach fearlessness or gain independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message,'[2] but you shouldn't see things in that way. To the extent that the Blessed One has white-clad householder female disciples who reach firm ground in this Doctrine & Discipline, attain a firm foothold, attain consolation, overcome their doubts, dispel their perplexity, reach fearlessness, & gain independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, I am one of them. If anyone doubts or denies this, let him go ask the Blessed One, the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one who is staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. So don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“And how does a wretch live together with a female deva? Here, the husband is one who destroys life … he insults and reviles ascetics and brahmins. But his wife is one who abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness; she is virtuous, of good character; she dwells at home with a heart free from the stain of miserliness; she does not insult or revile ascetics and brahmins. It is in such a way that a wretch lives together with a female deva.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.53/en/bodh ... ight=false
If people were to do more good deeds and develop virtue women would automatically be viewed as like different.
Hopefully we can get more and more people to develop virtue, generate good deeds, actions, and energy...no one can take away the effect of the deeds, actions, and energy generated.