buddhist lounge

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
TRobinson465
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by TRobinson465 »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:29 pm I haven't see quite those extremes, but I'd just point out that it makes little sense to classify a whole community.
True. There's variation within the community certainly. But the community still has its own culture in and of itself. Just like you can say Japanese people are (culturally) very punctual. Americans are very individualistic etc. Which is generally true. But of course there's variation by individual as well.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by dharmacorps »

I think in-person practice is really critical for beginners at least. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to learn about Buddhism from online forums, Facebook, etc. People behave so badly on the internet, and there is so much unhelpful information, its very hard to navigate even if you are well established in your practice.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by salayatananirodha »

SDC wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:15 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:22 am buddhists in western countries often suffer from a lack of community.
To add on from what I said in the previous post, what western Buddhists lack are good friends. We don’t need anymore Buddhist-themed social clubs where people get together and ignore the clear description of what an admirable friend should be doing for us. What we need are good friends who are not afraid to tell each other that they are not doing what must be done to develop in Dhamma. However, this can be extraordinarily problematic, because most people have “Development in Dhamma flavored icing” smeared all over a cake made of “sensual indulgence flour”. And that order will never work.

The issue we have today is that this often splits the community into extremes. On one side we have the friends who say, “Don’t worry, friend, it’s all good, you’ll get enlightened in the next life [hopefully]”, and on the other, “Hate yourself for not being perfectly austere”. So, those who are in need of good friend to support their efforts in virtue and restraint are met with a mixed message from either side, who are both painfully unaware of how to advise their friend to first and foremost reflect upon what exactly they want and expect from their involvement with the Dhamma, which would help them properly evaluate their efforts to that end.

A good friend would remind you that there are benefits to simply behaving well, however, those benefits do not imply one has made any progress on the level of view. The good friend should not be afraid to tell you that you can’t have your sensuality cake and eat it too, and that you have to be willing to settle for something less assuring if all you want to do is be wholesomely involved with others and live a happy life. Plain and simple, that is not the highest goal of this practice, and despite all the benefits of such a pleasant life, and despite everything the Buddha had to say about simply “being good”, the Buddha always made it clear that the development of right view was far superior.

In the end, a good friend would encourage you to be honest with yourself, and that despite good intentions to develop in Dhamma, that the actions of your ordinary lifestyle may be doing absolutely nothing other than keeping you bound to further wandering on. However, if you’re looking for friends that make you feel better about living in contradiction, you may as well just go to a bar or a club or library or a church. Those friends will be real nice, but they won’t necessarily be good.
i agree with what TRobinson said; "Realistically no lay person spends all of thier time on Buddhist practice. So having virtuous friends to do non-Buddhist stuff is very helpful because they have the same mindset of keeping precepts etc."

the person who converted me to buddhism, dylanj aka dylan jewel, was my friend from radical political groups. we were friends for a year or two before i got into the suttas. it's perfectly normal to desire human companionship, but of course when you surround yourself with people with wrong views you're doing no good. i'm not looking for people to reinforce bad habits. i've quit drugs and alcohol, and i've basically quit going out. but i listen to trap music and watch movies like john wick. i'm open about the fact that i have lifetimes of saṅkhara buildup that determines my actions. and i'm completely serious about the purpose of buddhism :)
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salayatananirodha
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by salayatananirodha »

furthermore, and this is the most important part, is that with dylan it was his care and attention as a friend, from one person to another, that influenced me to read the suttas. people recommend all kinds of bs, but if it becomes established one person cares for you and you can tell, then you're more inclined to listen. the problem for me is most of the relationships i have with buddhists online is very clinical. i honestly felt very alone with hundreds and hundreds of buddhists as facebook friends. this i perceive is a disservice to my own interest in the Dhamma. i'm aware that i need to integrate with the sangha but i am learning to do it in a more sustainable way
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mikenz66
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:15 pm To add on from what I said in the previous post, what western Buddhists lack are good friends. We don’t need anymore Buddhist-themed social clubs where people get together and ignore the clear description of what an admirable friend should be doing for us. ...
I certainly agree that a "Buddhist-themed social club" is not the aim. But in my experience, having connection with an community that has a commonality of Dhamma is extremely helpful (in my case an Asian community, with a few western hangers-on). Obviously, there are different levels of seriousness in such communities, but I don't see that as a problem, but as an advantage. Some members mostly just want to participate, perhaps organise things, cook, etc, some want to practice more deeply. A larger group makes supporting practice a lot easier. A community like that is supportive through ups and downs. Festivals, funerals, weddings, birthdays....

I've no experience with a real sense of community emerging out of purely Western groups. Presumably it's possible, and I think that's an interesting challenge for the development of Dhamma in the West.

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Radix
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Radix »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:44 pmI've no experience with a real sense of community emerging out of purely Western groups.
Western-ized Buddhism is by its nature antisocial, specifically, anti-lineage. In the most generous interpretation, Westernized Buddhists are actually aiming to be sammasambuddhas. Such Buddhists are not interested in being merely followers of a buddha, no, they want to "know for themselves", they reserve themselves the right not to commit to a teaching unless it "fits their experience". They don't see themselves as part of a lineage; they want independence from the onset. They are competitors of a buddha, not followers of a buddha. People with such mentality don't form communities; groups or gatherings, maybe.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Radix
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Radix »

SDC wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:15 pmTo add on from what I said in the previous post, what western Buddhists lack are good friends. We don’t need anymore Buddhist-themed social clubs where people get together and ignore the clear description of what an admirable friend should be doing for us. What we need are good friends who are not afraid to tell each other that they are not doing what must be done to develop in Dhamma. However, this can be extraordinarily problematic, because most people have “Development in Dhamma flavored icing” smeared all over a cake made of “sensual indulgence flour”. And that order will never work.

The issue we have today is that this often splits the community into extremes. On one side we have the friends who say, “Don’t worry, friend, it’s all good, you’ll get enlightened in the next life [hopefully]”, and on the other, “Hate yourself for not being perfectly austere”. So, those who are in need of good friend to support their efforts in virtue and restraint are met with a mixed message from either side, who are both painfully unaware of how to advise their friend to first and foremost reflect upon what exactly they want and expect from their involvement with the Dhamma, which would help them properly evaluate their efforts to that end.

A good friend would remind you that there are benefits to simply behaving well, however, those benefits do not imply one has made any progress on the level of view. The good friend should not be afraid to tell you that you can’t have your sensuality cake and eat it too, and that you have to be willing to settle for something less assuring if all you want to do is be wholesomely involved with others and live a happy life. Plain and simple, that is not the highest goal of this practice, and despite all the benefits of such a pleasant life, and despite everything the Buddha had to say about simply “being good”, the Buddha always made it clear that the development of right view was far superior.

In the end, a good friend would encourage you to be honest with yourself, and that despite good intentions to develop in Dhamma, that the actions of your ordinary lifestyle may be doing absolutely nothing other than keeping you bound to further wandering on. However, if you’re looking for friends that make you feel better about living in contradiction, you may as well just go to a bar or a club or library or a church. Those friends will be real nice, but they won’t necessarily be good.
I shall the effect of this good lesson keep
As watchman to my heart. But, good my brother,
Do not — as some ungracious pastors do —
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven,
Whilst, like a puffed and reckless libertine,
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads,
And recks not his own rede.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Sam Vara
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:25 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:44 pmI've no experience with a real sense of community emerging out of purely Western groups.
Western-ized Buddhism is by its nature antisocial, specifically, anti-lineage. In the most generous interpretation, Westernized Buddhists are actually aiming to be sammasambuddhas. Such Buddhists are not interested in being merely followers of a buddha, no, they want to "know for themselves", they reserve themselves the right not to commit to a teaching unless it "fits their experience". They don't see themselves as part of a lineage; they want independence from the onset. They are competitors of a buddha, not followers of a buddha. People with such mentality don't form communities; groups or gatherings, maybe.
I don't know about Westernised Buddhism being antisocial and anti-lineage; that probably depends on what one means by antisocial, Westernised, etc. But by sammāsambuddha do you mean one who (like Gotama) finds their own path to salvation without the dispensation of another? That would appear to be contradictory if they are Westernised Buddhists. That horse would already have bolted.

And "knowing for oneself" is not at all exceptional within Theravada. attanāva jāneyyātha is in fact something of a touchstone.
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Radix
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:54 pmBut by sammāsambuddha do you mean one who (like Gotama) finds their own path to salvation without the dispensation of another? That would appear to be contradictory if they are Westernised Buddhists. That horse would already have bolted.
Formally, physically being a member of a lineage, a dispensation doesn't somehow magically make one belong to it. You can see it all the time: People who outwardly join Buddhism, but whose heart is not in it. They can go on like that for decades. They go along externally, some even become sutta scholars or have decades of meditation practice under their belt, but at their core, they have a fundamental doubt about Buddhism that they have no intention of abandoning. In fact, they cherish this doubt, it's what their sense of freedom consists of. The skeptical Western approach to religion and spirituality nurtures this skepticism.
And "knowing for oneself" is not at all exceptional within Theravada. attanāva jāneyyātha is in fact something of a touchstone.
There are several ways in which "knowing for oneself" can be understood.
For some people, "knowing for oneself" is like looking up a phone number in a phone book -- and they characterize that as "knowing for oneself".

For some other people, "knowing for oneself" entails everything from looking up a phone number in a phone book to calling it to verify it, to learning who compiled the phone book, to retracing the steps of home to make a phone and how the whole phone infrastructure works -- and all this specifically without consulting any existing textbooks on phone engineering or talking to phone engineers etc. This is the Westernized approach: an attempt at devising a Buddhism-independent way of verifying the Buddha's teachings.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Sam Vara
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:54 pmBut by sammāsambuddha do you mean one who (like Gotama) finds their own path to salvation without the dispensation of another? That would appear to be contradictory if they are Westernised Buddhists. That horse would already have bolted.
Formally, physically being a member of a lineage, a dispensation doesn't somehow magically make one belong to it.
Normally, being a member of a group means that you belong to that group. :shrug:
You can see it all the time: People who outwardly join Buddhism, but whose heart is not in it. They can go on like that for decades. They go along externally, some even become sutta scholars or have decades of meditation practice under their belt, but at their core, they have a fundamental doubt about Buddhism that they have no intention of abandoning. In fact, they cherish this doubt, it's what their sense of freedom consists of. The skeptical Western approach to religion and spirituality nurtures this skepticism.
I must admit that I lack your in-depth and varied knowledge of Buddhism, and of people's doubts and intentions; but if you say so...
This is the Westernized approach: an attempt at devising a Buddhism-independent way of verifying the Buddha's teachings.
Again, I defer to your greater depth of experience here, as I thought "knowing for yourself" was a less problematic idea.
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SDC
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:44 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:15 pm To add on from what I said in the previous post, what western Buddhists lack are good friends. We don’t need anymore Buddhist-themed social clubs where people get together and ignore the clear description of what an admirable friend should be doing for us. ...
I certainly agree that a "Buddhist-themed social club" is not the aim. But in my experience, having connection with a community that has a commonality of Dhamma is extremely helpful (in my case an Asian community, with a few western hangers-on). Obviously, there are different levels of seriousness in such communities, but I don't see that as a problem, but as an advantage. Some members mostly just want to participate, perhaps organise things, cook, etc, some want to practice more deeply. A larger group makes supporting practice a lot easier. A community like that is supportive through ups and downs. Festivals, funerals, weddings, birthdays....
A vibrant lay community is of great benefit to the monastics they support, and, to be blunt, the monastic community would not endure without it. To that extent, it is deserving of much praise. The issue for the laity, however, is the assumption that this vibrancy, by default, also applies to their Dhamma practice, which is far from a guarantee.

This is probably a larger discussion than the scope of this thread would allow, but what I think the modern Buddhist community needs to come to terms with is that, within the full scope of possible involvement with the Dhamma, it comes down to efforts that amount to either static or dynamic development. This is not to say one is always expected to be experiencing noticeable progress at all times, but there is a clear difference between efforts that are that gradual shelving, that gradual wearing away of defilements, and those that are doing very little to wear them away, or perhaps not wearing them away at all. In theory, a member of a vibrant lay community, may be accumulating loads of merit, but absolutely no wisdom, and it is important that these different efforts not all get lumped in to one assumed direction.

As long as everyone keeps their intentions clear, inroads to more serious practice - as you suggest - remain available, but we don’t end up on that road accidentally. The efforts need to be deliberate, and that means that we - even as lay people - don’t gloss over the risks of not taking this practice seriously during a time in our lives where our faculties are clear.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:27 pmAgain, I defer to your greater depth of experience here, as I thought "knowing for yourself" was a less problematic idea.
Here's to your another 40 years of wandering the desert! Thank heavens they serve manna.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:27 pmAgain, I defer to your greater depth of experience here, as I thought "knowing for yourself" was a less problematic idea.
Here's to your another 40 years of wandering the desert! Thank heavens they serve manna.
What desert do you mean? If it's a serious point, can you explain?
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:47 pmWhat desert do you mean? If it's a serious point, can you explain?
You've been around Buddhism for some 40 years, you have "practiced", but you're still not sure whether it's true or not -- and you see no problem with that???!
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: buddhist lounge

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:47 pmWhat desert do you mean? If it's a serious point, can you explain?
You've been around Buddhism for some 40 years, you have "practiced", but you're still not sure whether it's true or not -- and you see no problem with that???!
Ah, I see!

No, I don't see any kind of problem with that. I don't expect there to be some kind of breakthrough to knowing the truth after a set number of years. Nobody has ever told me that should be the case.
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