buddhist lounge

[salayatananirodha]

buddhists in western countries often suffer from a lack of community. i've been thinking about this for some time. the only places for buddhists to talk to other buddhists are places where the discussion all pertains to buddhism. and even tho i very much enjoy talking about buddhism usually, it's a bit demanding. sometimes, i just wanna talk about things that happen in daily life, or things i like, or my views on things. i'm sure others also feel this way.
i've created this group in the interest of having a place to talk about things that are not directly related to buddhism where we have a background of common spiritual goals and beliefs.
years ago i committed to using my (facebook) platform for evangelism only. i've *mostly* kept my promise and would like to leave my timeline pure.
thus, here's the link
https://www.facebook.com/groups/layingout
if you're not buddhist but want to join too you can. know however that it predominantly influenced by buddhist ideals

[SarathW]

Good Luck.
Unfortunately, I do not have a FaceBook page.

[DNS]

I agree with you. For several years the lounge was closed here. I have re-opened it and it’s going very well.

And I agree with you too that community is a big thing missing in Western convert Buddhism.

I moved this topic to the lounge here.

[TRobinson465]

And I agree with you too that community is a big thing missing in Western convert Buddhism.

Agreed. Lots of western Buddhists criticize Buddhist temples for being cultural centers for the immigrant community. Although some, if not many, have indeed lost their way and focused too much on being cultural centers. Finding a temple with a congregation that leans toward a more serious practice is helpful, if not vital, for staying on track on the Buddhist path. For the immigrant Buddhist temples with such a congregation, the value of having that "community" center is priceless and central to the path.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ānanda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ānanda said to the Blessed One, “This is half of the holy life, lord: having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues.”
“Don’t say that, Ānanda. Don’t say that. Having admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN45_2.html

[TRobinson465]

I agree with you. For several years the lounge was closed here. I have re-opened it and it’s going very well.

Some kind of social area for any community is a good idea. Every temple ive been to basically uses the lunch period as an oppurtunity for the congregation to socialize and get to know each other. Some even use work/volunteer periods the same way.

It just has to be much more heavily regulated if its an online community since anonymity brings out more toxic behavior/ideology tribalism. At real life temples i visit its kind of an unwritten rule not to discuss politics or anything potentially divisive, simply because when your talking to people face to face you kinda know it'll probably end badly if you get into that kinda stuff. Even when such divisive topics do come up its usually a lot less intense and short lived because you also see them as more human if your talking to them in person, so you dont really reflexively move toward the demonization of them as "others" if they disagree with you on an issue.

[SDC]

Lots of western Buddhists criticize Buddhist temples for being cultural centers for the immigrant community. Although some, if not many, have indeed lost their way and focused too much on being cultural centers.

Most westerners aren’t even aware of the needs of the immigrant communities, and make that ignorant judgment based on the assertions of other westerner Buddhists who claim that socializing with likeminded Buddhists is essential to a fruitful practice. However, if we look at the whole of SN 45.2, we see this very important point:

And how, Ānanda, does a bhikkhu who has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path? Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release.

So, if your “friend” is not encouraging the right things they are not necessarily a good friend. For example, they may casually take words and phrases out of context to justify behavior that is not necessarily wholesome.

[SDC]

buddhists in western countries often suffer from a lack of community.

To add on from what I said in the previous post, what western Buddhists lack are good friends. We don’t need anymore Buddhist-themed social clubs where people get together and ignore the clear description of what an admirable friend should be doing for us. What we need are good friends who are not afraid to tell each other that they are not doing what must be done to develop in Dhamma. However, this can be extraordinarily problematic, because most people have “Development in Dhamma flavored icing” smeared all over a cake made of “sensual indulgence flour”. And that order will never work.

The issue we have today is that this often splits the community into extremes. On one side we have the friends who say, “Don’t worry, friend, it’s all good, you’ll get enlightened in the next life [hopefully]”, and on the other, “Hate yourself for not being perfectly austere”. So, those who are in need of good friend to support their efforts in virtue and restraint are met with a mixed message from either side, who are both painfully unaware of how to advise their friend to first and foremost reflect upon what exactly they want and expect from their involvement with the Dhamma, which would help them properly evaluate their efforts to that end.

A good friend would remind you that there are benefits to simply behaving well, however, those benefits do not imply one has made any progress on the level of view. The good friend should not be afraid to tell you that you can’t have your sensuality cake and eat it too, and that you have to be willing to settle for something less assuring if all you want to do is be wholesomely involved with others and live a happy life. Plain and simple, that is not the highest goal of this practice, and despite all the benefits of such a pleasant life, and despite everything the Buddha had to say about simply “being good”, the Buddha always made it clear that the development of right view was far superior.

In the end, a good friend would encourage you to be honest with yourself, and that despite good intentions to develop in Dhamma, that the actions of your ordinary lifestyle may be doing absolutely nothing other than keeping you bound to further wandering on. However, if you’re looking for friends that make you feel better about living in contradiction, you may as well just go to a bar or a club or library or a church. Those friends will be real nice, but they won’t necessarily be good.

[TRobinson465]

Lots of western Buddhists criticize Buddhist temples for being cultural centers for the immigrant community. Although some, if not many, have indeed lost their way and focused too much on being cultural centers.

Most westerners aren’t even aware of the needs of the immigrant communities, and make that ignorant judgment based on the assertions of other westerner Buddhists who claim that socializing with likeminded Buddhists is essential to a fruitful practice. However, if we look at the whole of SN 45.2, we see this very important point:

And how, Ānanda, does a bhikkhu who has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path? Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release.

So, if your “friend” is not encouraging the right things they are not necessarily a good friend. For example, they may casually take words and phrases out of context to justify behavior that is not necessarily wholesome.

Precisely, so it depends. There are some immigrant temples that literally serve alcohol at temple fairs. Others basically only function as cultural centers, i once had a Korean Buddhist temple visit a thai temple i attended and the congregation literally asked why we meditate. These are the ones that have lost thier way. However, some other immigrant temples focus very seriously on Buddhist practice and have many good friends to support them on the practice, others, are kinda in the middle, largely cultural but still Buddhist based. These are important and vital to the practice. Many of the people i meet IRL centers will go with friends or will only attend if one of their friends is there. It acts as a great support.

[DNS]

A good friend would . . .

And there is nothing that would preclude such a good friend from existing online, just as they could IRL.

[SDC]

A good friend would . . .

And there is nothing that would preclude such a good friend from existing online, just as they could IRL.

Of course, but they wouldn’t hang out in the lounge…unless they were just stopping by to discourage its existence.

[DNS]

Of course, but they wouldn’t hang out in the lounge…unless they were just stopping by to discourage its existence.

I disagree. I believe they would, in the continuing effort to help others on their path. And it builds community and cordial behavior. It's all good, imo.
ymmv

[SDC]

Of course, but they wouldn’t hang out in the lounge…unless they were just stopping by to discourage its existence.

I disagree. I believe they would, in the continuing effort to help others on their path. And it builds community and cordial behavior. It's all good, imo.
ymmv

I dissent!

[SDC]

However, some other immigrant temples focus very seriously on Buddhist practice and have many good friends to support them on the practice, others, are kinda in the middle, largely cultural but still Buddhist based. These are important and vital to the practice. Many of the people i meet IRL centers will go with friends or will only attend if one of their friends is there. It acts as a great support.

As long as it isn’t an environment where excuses are prevalent and welcome, sure, it can be a great support. Each individual is subject to the five hindrances, which even in seclusion can cause a great deal of trouble, let alone what can arise when around others. As innocent and harmless as though it may seem, even simple pleasures and subtle resistances can be detrimental if they are routine and embedded in the environment/lifestyle of a particular group setting; and what may seem like protection and security, is nothing but continually being insulated from the context and mindset required for development. What I mean is, that typical norms may provide too much support, which would otherwise allow the mind to begin steeping in contexts that, although uncomfortable, will both strengthen the mind and broaden it. It is imperative that one’s dedicated Buddhist friends offer support where it matters and none where it would obstruct.

[TRobinson465]

However, some other immigrant temples focus very seriously on Buddhist practice and have many good friends to support them on the practice, others, are kinda in the middle, largely cultural but still Buddhist based. These are important and vital to the practice. Many of the people i meet IRL centers will go with friends or will only attend if one of their friends is there. It acts as a great support.

As long as it isn’t an environment where excuses are prevalent and welcome, sure, it can be a great support. Each individual is subject to the five hindrances, which even in seclusion can cause a great deal of trouble, let alone what can arise when around others. As innocent and harmless as though it may seem, even simple pleasures and subtle resistances can be detrimental if they are routine and embedded in the environment/lifestyle of a particular group setting; and what may seem like protection and security, is nothing but continually being insulated from the context and mindset required for development. What I mean is, that typical norms may provide too much support, which would otherwise allow the mind to begin steeping in contexts that, although uncomfortable, will both strengthen the mind and broaden it. It is imperative that one’s dedicated Buddhist friends offer support where it matters and none where it would obstruct.

In some ways yeah. Realistically no lay person spends all of thier time on Buddhist practice. So having virtuous friends to do non-Buddhist stuff is very helpful because they have the same mindset of keeping precepts etc. The Buddha said to avoid fools because we pick up the behavior of those around us. If we hang out with virtuous friends, even if they are not spending all of thier time on Buddhist practice, its a good way of kicking bad habits and avoiding spending your leisure time breaking precepts since the people you hang with do no such thing. Most people ive seen IRL also come to temples/meditation centers thru invites from thier friends who they knew thru non-Buddhist/meditation related means. So its very helpful for building up the Buddhist community, although in the case of the lounge here on DW i guess that wouldnt apply since its already Buddhist. But unless you spend 100% of your free time on Buddhist practice, what you do with the rest of your free time is best spent with virtuous friends and not bad ones.

A lay Buddhist who spends much of thier free time with bar goers because thats the only group of friends they have access to is much more likely to break the precepts. A non-Buddhist layperson who spends thier time with people who keep precepts is less likely too.

[mikenz66]

Precisely, so it depends. There are some immigrant temples that literally serve alcohol at temple fairs. Others basically only function as cultural centers, i once had a Korean Buddhist temple visit a thai temple i attended and the congregation literally asked why we meditate. These are the ones that have lost thier way. However, some other immigrant temples focus very seriously on Buddhist practice and have many good friends to support them on the practice, others, are kinda in the middle, largely cultural but still Buddhist based. These are important and vital to the practice. Many of the people i meet IRL centers will go with friends or will only attend if one of their friends is there. It acts as a great support.

I haven't see quite those extremes, but I'd just point out that it makes little sense to classify a whole community. At my local Thai monastery, some have serious practice, and some don't. However, one of the great things about of such a community is that they are invariably supportive of the idea of practice, even if they don't do much themselves. That's a significant difference from a community of non-Buddhists.

Bhikkhu Cintita wrote some essays a while ago where he argued that what he termed "Folk Buddhism" (whether Asian or American) is essential to maintain what he calls "Essential Buddhism".
https://bhikkhucintita.wordpress.com/ho ... -buddhism/

Understanding the difference between Essential and Folk Buddhism is to bring the two into a proper and mutually beneficial relationship. First, our corn should grow straight and tall. Maintaining the integrity of Essential Buddhism is for the adepts and those with adept tendencies and it is for future generations. It also serves to protect the undergrowth and plays a corrective role, to ensure that Folk Buddhism thrives is a wholesome and beneficial form. Second, our undergrowth should bring wholesome values and practices into the lives of Buddhists. It should serve to bring benefit and remove harm. It should also take refuge under Essential Buddhism, to remain consistent in expression with the teachings, wisdom, standards and advice of the corn. The power of Folk Buddhism is in its immediate appeal to the largest masses of Buddhists through its simplicity and cultural consistency, but if it escapes the influence of Essential Buddhism it becomes a marginal cult of Buddhism at best.

Mike