What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

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SarathW
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What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by SarathW »

What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?
‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;
Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;
Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;
Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;
Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṁ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti;
It appears the translation of Endgin of form seems inaccurate translation.
For instance - It is not possible to end the Rupa.
Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self"

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato ... ript=latin
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sam Vara
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Re: What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:01 am What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?
‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;
Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;
Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;
Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;
Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṁ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti;
It appears the translation of Endgin of form seems inaccurate translation.
For instance - It is not possible to end the Rupa.
Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self"

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato ... ript=latin
It is usually taken to mean something similar to nirodha, as in disappearance, ending, annihilation. I believe it has the original sense of "going home", i.e. "going to rest", as per the setting sun.
pipwa
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Re: What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by pipwa »

SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:01 am It appears the translation of Ending of form seems inaccurate translation.
For instance - It is not possible to end the Rupa.
Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self"

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Hi. The link you included says:
Furthermore, a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu.
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates?
Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu?
It’s when a mendicant contemplates:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu:
‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;
Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;
Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;
Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;
Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
It sounds like the word 'origin' refers to the origin of grasping aggregates and the word 'ending' refers to the ending of grasping aggregates. What ends is the grasping. Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self". :idea:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:01 am What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?
‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;
Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;
Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;
Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;
Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
iti viññāṇaṁ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti;
It appears the translation of Endgin of form seems inaccurate translation.
For instance - It is not possible to end the Rupa.
Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self"

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato ... ript=latin
I don't see an issue with the translation? You don't need to literally see form's origin and cessation, you just need to understand it which is another type of "seeing".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by SarathW »

pipwa wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:44 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:01 am It appears the translation of Ending of form seems inaccurate translation.
For instance - It is not possible to end the Rupa.
Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self"

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Hi. The link you included says:
Furthermore, a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu.
And how does a mendicant meditate observing an aspect of principles with respect to the five grasping aggregates?
Kathañca pana, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu?
It’s when a mendicant contemplates:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu:
‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
‘iti rūpaṁ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;
Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.
iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;
Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.
iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;
Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.
iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṁ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṁ atthaṅgamo;
Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’
It sounds like the word 'origin' refers to the origin of grasping aggregates and the word 'ending' refers to the ending of grasping aggregates. What ends is the grasping. Venerable Ellawala Vijithananda said the meaning is "not taking as my self". :idea:
:goodpost:
If that means the ending on grasping it is OK.
If Nirodha means the ending of grasping it is ok too.
:D
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I translate it as "extinguish."
“Dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya,” means to extinguish pain and sorrow. Here, dukkha means simply physical pain, while domanassa is mental pain or sorrow. The expression “Suriye atthaṅgama,” means the setting of the sun. In hot countries like Bihar where the Buddha mostly taught, the sun is extremely hot and oppressive from early morning to late evening. When it finally falls down to the horizon and sets, the burning finally ceases. Physical pain is extremely oppressive, and when it ceases, one feels great relief. The mental pain of sorrow, too, is very difficult to bear. The mind feels heavy and unresponsive. Although one wishes only to be happy, sad thoughts pervade the mind and if dwelt upon, only lead to greater despair. When sorrow is replaced by happiness, the mind is again buoyant and optimistic.
The PTS Dictionary says this:
ttha2 (p. 24) (nt.) [Vedic asta, of uncertain etym.] home, primarily as place of rest & shelter, but in P. phraseology abstracted from the "going home", i. e. setting of the sun, as disappearance, going out of existence, annihilation, extinction. Only in acc. and as °- in foll phrases: atthangacchati to disappear, to go out of existence, to vanish Dh 226 (= vināsaṃ natthibhāvaṃ gacchati DhA III.324), 384 (= parikkhayaṃ gacchati); pp. atthangata gone home, gone to rest, gone, disappeared; of the sun (= set): J I.175 (atthangate suriye at sunset); PvA 55 (id.) 216 (anatthangate s. before sunset) fig. Sn 472 (atthagata). 475 (id.); 1075 (= niruddha ucchinṇa vinaṭṭha anupādi-sesāya nibbāna-dhātuyā nibbuta); It 58; Dhs 1038; Vbh 195. -atthagatatta (nt. abstr.) disappearance SnA 409. -atthangama (atthagama passim) annihilation, disappearance; opposed to samudaya (coming into existence) and synonymous with nirodha (destruction) D I.34, 37, 183; S IV.327; A III.326; Ps II.4, 6, 39; Pug 52; Dhs 165, 265, 501, 579; Vbh 105. -atthagamana (nt.) setting (of the sun) J I.101 (suriyass' atthagamanā at sunset) DA I.95 (= ogamana). - attha-gāmin, in phrase udayɔ atthagāmin leading to birth and death (of paññā): see udaya. -atthaṃ paleti = atthangacchati (fig.) Sn 1074 (= atthangameti nirujjhati Nd2 28). - Also atthamita (pp. of i) set (of the sun) in phrase anatthamite suriye before sunset (with anatthangamite as v. l. at both pass.) DhA I.86; III.127. - Cp. also abbhattha.
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Dhammapardon
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Re: What is the meaning of atthaṅgamo?

Post by Dhammapardon »

An effort to generate and a relief to extinguish. Feels like a rest to me.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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