Alex123 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:56 pm
dharmacorps wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:51 pm
One doesn't get enlightened by following a list of rules. That said, Following the 5 precepts does seem to be described by the Buddha as being behavior for stream entry. The factors for stream entry are more than this though. Sila is one part.
Right. Sila is one part that I had a question about.
There is same question here, but I think he ask about taking the precepts formally:
viewtopic.php?p=719220#p719220
IMO it depends on whether you follow the gradual training as the Buddha said in suttas or follow another method.
[...]
When they have ethical conduct, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, guard your sense doors. When you see a sight with your eyes, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of sight, and achieve restraint over it. When you hear a sound with your ears … When you smell an odor with your nose … When you taste a flavor with your tongue … When you feel a touch with your body … When you know a thought with your mind, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of mind were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of mind, and achieve its restraint.’
When they guard their sense doors, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, eat in moderation. Reflect properly on the food that you eat: ‘Not for fun, indulgence, adornment, or decoration, but only to sustain this body, to avoid harm, and to support spiritual practice. In this way, I shall put an end to old discomfort and not give rise to new discomfort, and I will live blamelessly and at ease.’
[...]
Sense restraint is necessary for gradual training. What kind of sense restraint are you doing if you eat food for its taste, indulge in the luxuries and comforts of modern life, have sex, ...?
I don't think it's necessary to take the 8 precepts, some are unpractical for lay people, but you have to restrain your senses, so:
- Abstaining from killing. Needed
- Abstaining from stealing. Needed
- Abstaining from sexual activity. Needed, but I suppose can cost your marriage if your have partner.
- Abstaining from telling lies. Needed
- Abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs. Needed
- Abstaining from eating after noon. Not practical, you don't have to eat only once a day, but you have to eat only to feed the body and not for the pleasure of food as buddha said, so eat plain healthy food and only the amount you need, and eat mindfully.
- Abstaining from entertainment and beautifying the body. Not practical, sometimes you have to go to entertainments, and enough to wear simple clouth for covering your body, not for beautification, status ...
- Abstaining from using luxurious furniture. Not practical, in modern world all is comfort, I think is enough to not self indulge yourself in comfort and laziness, to not seek comfort for pleasure.
In my opinion, I would not take the 8 precepts because they are not practical for lay people and breaking them is not immoral if you haven't taken them, so 5 precepts is enough, but I would maintain an 8 precepts equally demanding ethical conduct adapted to secular life because it is needed for sense restrain.
Sense restraint is needed, you cannot observe craving if every time you have the slightest craving you succumb to it, you won't feel how harsh aggregates are if you don't say no to them and feel how they pressure you when they don't have what they wish, how they bite you, you cannot abandon sensuality while still valuing it and selfindulging in it, it would be like trying to cure alcoholism by drinking alcohol every day and holding the view that alcohol is good and healthy.
So my opinion is that sila is needed because sense restrain is needed, and for further clarification:
Mendicants, an ethical person, who has fulfilled ethical conduct, need not make a wish: ‘May I have no regrets!’ It’s only natural that an ethical person has no regrets.
When you have no regrets you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel joy!’ It’s only natural that joy springs up when you have no regrets.
When you feel joy you need not make a wish: ‘May I experience rapture!’ It’s only natural that rapture arises when you’re joyful.
When your mind is full of rapture you need not make a wish: ‘May my body become tranquil!’ It’s only natural that your body becomes tranquil when your mind is full of rapture.
When your body is tranquil you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel bliss!’ It’s only natural to feel bliss when your body is tranquil.
When you feel bliss you need not make a wish: ‘May my mind be immersed in samādhi!’ It’s only natural for the mind to become immersed in samādhi when you feel bliss.
When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish: ‘May I truly know and see!’ It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi.
When you truly know and see you need not make a wish: ‘May I grow disillusioned!’ It’s only natural to grow disillusioned when you truly know and see.
When you’re disillusioned you need not make a wish: ‘May I become dispassionate!’ It’s only natural to grow dispassionate when you’re disillusioned.
When you’re dispassionate you need not make a wish: ‘May I realize the knowledge and vision of freedom!’ It’s only natural to realize the knowledge and vision of freedom when you’re dispassionate.
And so, mendicants, the knowledge and vision of freedom is the purpose and benefit of dispassion. Dispassion is the purpose and benefit of disillusionment. Disillusionment is the purpose and benefit of truly knowing and seeing. Truly knowing and seeing is the purpose and benefit of immersion. Immersion is the purpose and benefit of bliss. Bliss is the purpose and benefit of tranquility. Tranquility is the purpose and benefit of rapture. Rapture is the purpose and benefit of joy. Joy is the purpose and benefit of not having regrets. Not having regrets is the purpose and benefit of skillful ethics. And so, mendicants, good qualities flow on and fill up from one to the other, for going from the near shore to the far shore.
Sila is the base of everything, the foundation of the building, without sila the whole building falls to the ground.
IMO: To build samadhi (not samma samadhi, just samadhi), that is, to compose the mind, it is necessary to abstain from sensual pleasures,
a mind in which there is lust does not have samadhi. Samadhi takes time to compose (the samadhi of the suttas), maybe even weeks/months at first or even impossible as laypeople if life is too complicated, you can lose samadhi just by getting involved in an argument, having sex ... you can't enjoy sensual pleasures and keep samadhi at the same time. IMO samma samadhi not needed for stream entering but sati and some degree of samadhi yes.
When someone goes on a retreat, one of the functions of the retreat environment is to build that samadhi (at least a little bit of samadhi, so mind is more still, less lustful, more happy ... and wisdom can arise more easily ) and it takes days without coarse sensual pleasures just to build that little samadhi. Impossible to build some degree of samadhi while selfindulging in sensual pleasures like watching TV, partying, sex, playing video games ... all day.
So without "8 precepts" no sense restraint and no samadhi, so no gradual training. 5 precepts is not enough because is not enough for sense restraint, you can selfindulge in food, comfort, entertainment, sex ... and still being keeping 5 precepts. Sense restraint implies "8 precepts" and more, things like not self distract watching films, listening to music, in your own thoughts ..., no sense restraint if you have sex, eat for taste, seek comfort and pleasure ...
Anyway as laypeople we have limitations, so we do the best that we can, ... the above is just my rationale of why "8 precepts"(sense restraint) are very recommendable but maybe it is possible to become sotapanna without sense restrain, who knows
Metta.