5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Alex123 »

I've heard some saying that 8 precepts are bare-minimumfor stream entry. However, in the suttas it seem to suggest that 5 (or modified 5 precepts, right speech is expanded) are required.

Of course the more precepts one follows the better. But I'd like to know the minimum.
“Householder, when five fearful animosities have subsided in a noble disciple, and he possesses the four factors of stream-entry, and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble law, if he wishes he could by himself declare of himself: ‘I am one finished with hell, finished with the animal realm, finished with the sphere of ghosts, finished with the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as my
destination.’
“What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided? Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.

“One who takes what is not given … … who engages in sexual misconduct … who speaks falsely … who indulges in wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence, this fearful animosity has subsided.
SN12.41 - Bhikkhu Bodhi translation
Thanks.
SarathW
Posts: 21238
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by SarathW »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:08 pm I've heard some saying that 8 precepts are bare-minimumfor stream entry. However, in the suttas it seem to suggest that 5 (or modified 5 precepts, right speech is expanded) are required.

Of course the more precepts one follows the better. But I'd like to know the minimum.
“Householder, when five fearful animosities have subsided in a noble disciple, and he possesses the four factors of stream-entry, and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble law, if he wishes he could by himself declare of himself: ‘I am one finished with hell, finished with the animal realm, finished with the sphere of ghosts, finished with the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as my
destination.’
“What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided? Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.

“One who takes what is not given … … who engages in sexual misconduct … who speaks falsely … who indulges in wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence, this fearful animosity has subsided.
SN12.41 - Bhikkhu Bodhi translation
Thanks.
The way I understand the five precepts seems to be mandatory.
When you look at Buddhist stories Sotapanna observes eight precepts mainly on Uposatha days.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by dharmacorps »

One doesn't get enlightened by following a list of rules. That said, Following the 5 precepts does seem to be described by the Buddha as being behavior for stream entry. The factors for stream entry are more than this though. Sila is one part.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Alex123 »

dharmacorps wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:51 pm One doesn't get enlightened by following a list of rules. That said, Following the 5 precepts does seem to be described by the Buddha as being behavior for stream entry. The factors for stream entry are more than this though. Sila is one part.
Right. Sila is one part that I had a question about.
RobertoAnces
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:56 pm
dharmacorps wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:51 pm One doesn't get enlightened by following a list of rules. That said, Following the 5 precepts does seem to be described by the Buddha as being behavior for stream entry. The factors for stream entry are more than this though. Sila is one part.
Right. Sila is one part that I had a question about.
There is same question here, but I think he ask about taking the precepts formally:

viewtopic.php?p=719220#p719220

IMO it depends on whether you follow the gradual training as the Buddha said in suttas or follow another method.
[...]
When they have ethical conduct, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, guard your sense doors. When you see a sight with your eyes, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of sight, and achieve restraint over it. When you hear a sound with your ears … When you smell an odor with your nose … When you taste a flavor with your tongue … When you feel a touch with your body … When you know a thought with your mind, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of mind were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of mind, and achieve its restraint.’

When they guard their sense doors, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, eat in moderation. Reflect properly on the food that you eat: ‘Not for fun, indulgence, adornment, or decoration, but only to sustain this body, to avoid harm, and to support spiritual practice. In this way, I shall put an end to old discomfort and not give rise to new discomfort, and I will live blamelessly and at ease.’
[...]
Sense restraint is necessary for gradual training. What kind of sense restraint are you doing if you eat food for its taste, indulge in the luxuries and comforts of modern life, have sex, ...?

I don't think it's necessary to take the 8 precepts, some are unpractical for lay people, but you have to restrain your senses, so:
  • Abstaining from killing. Needed
  • Abstaining from stealing. Needed
  • Abstaining from sexual activity. Needed, but I suppose can cost your marriage if your have partner.
  • Abstaining from telling lies. Needed
  • Abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs. Needed
  • Abstaining from eating after noon. Not practical, you don't have to eat only once a day, but you have to eat only to feed the body and not for the pleasure of food as buddha said, so eat plain healthy food and only the amount you need, and eat mindfully.
  • Abstaining from entertainment and beautifying the body. Not practical, sometimes you have to go to entertainments, and enough to wear simple clouth for covering your body, not for beautification, status ...
  • Abstaining from using luxurious furniture. Not practical, in modern world all is comfort, I think is enough to not self indulge yourself in comfort and laziness, to not seek comfort for pleasure.
In my opinion, I would not take the 8 precepts because they are not practical for lay people and breaking them is not immoral if you haven't taken them, so 5 precepts is enough, but I would maintain an 8 precepts equally demanding ethical conduct adapted to secular life because it is needed for sense restrain.

Sense restraint is needed, you cannot observe craving if every time you have the slightest craving you succumb to it, you won't feel how harsh aggregates are if you don't say no to them and feel how they pressure you when they don't have what they wish, how they bite you, you cannot abandon sensuality while still valuing it and selfindulging in it, it would be like trying to cure alcoholism by drinking alcohol every day and holding the view that alcohol is good and healthy.

So my opinion is that sila is needed because sense restrain is needed, and for further clarification:
Mendicants, an ethical person, who has fulfilled ethical conduct, need not make a wish: ‘May I have no regrets!’ It’s only natural that an ethical person has no regrets.

When you have no regrets you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel joy!’ It’s only natural that joy springs up when you have no regrets.

When you feel joy you need not make a wish: ‘May I experience rapture!’ It’s only natural that rapture arises when you’re joyful.

When your mind is full of rapture you need not make a wish: ‘May my body become tranquil!’ It’s only natural that your body becomes tranquil when your mind is full of rapture.

When your body is tranquil you need not make a wish: ‘May I feel bliss!’ It’s only natural to feel bliss when your body is tranquil.

When you feel bliss you need not make a wish: ‘May my mind be immersed in samādhi!’ It’s only natural for the mind to become immersed in samādhi when you feel bliss.

When your mind is immersed in samādhi you need not make a wish: ‘May I truly know and see!’ It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi.

When you truly know and see you need not make a wish: ‘May I grow disillusioned!’ It’s only natural to grow disillusioned when you truly know and see.

When you’re disillusioned you need not make a wish: ‘May I become dispassionate!’ It’s only natural to grow dispassionate when you’re disillusioned.

When you’re dispassionate you need not make a wish: ‘May I realize the knowledge and vision of freedom!’ It’s only natural to realize the knowledge and vision of freedom when you’re dispassionate.

And so, mendicants, the knowledge and vision of freedom is the purpose and benefit of dispassion. Dispassion is the purpose and benefit of disillusionment. Disillusionment is the purpose and benefit of truly knowing and seeing. Truly knowing and seeing is the purpose and benefit of immersion. Immersion is the purpose and benefit of bliss. Bliss is the purpose and benefit of tranquility. Tranquility is the purpose and benefit of rapture. Rapture is the purpose and benefit of joy. Joy is the purpose and benefit of not having regrets. Not having regrets is the purpose and benefit of skillful ethics. And so, mendicants, good qualities flow on and fill up from one to the other, for going from the near shore to the far shore.
Sila is the base of everything, the foundation of the building, without sila the whole building falls to the ground.

IMO: To build samadhi (not samma samadhi, just samadhi), that is, to compose the mind, it is necessary to abstain from sensual pleasures, a mind in which there is lust does not have samadhi. Samadhi takes time to compose (the samadhi of the suttas), maybe even weeks/months at first or even impossible as laypeople if life is too complicated, you can lose samadhi just by getting involved in an argument, having sex ... you can't enjoy sensual pleasures and keep samadhi at the same time. IMO samma samadhi not needed for stream entering but sati and some degree of samadhi yes.

When someone goes on a retreat, one of the functions of the retreat environment is to build that samadhi (at least a little bit of samadhi, so mind is more still, less lustful, more happy ... and wisdom can arise more easily ) and it takes days without coarse sensual pleasures just to build that little samadhi. Impossible to build some degree of samadhi while selfindulging in sensual pleasures like watching TV, partying, sex, playing video games ... all day.

So without "8 precepts" no sense restraint and no samadhi, so no gradual training. 5 precepts is not enough because is not enough for sense restraint, you can selfindulge in food, comfort, entertainment, sex ... and still being keeping 5 precepts. Sense restraint implies "8 precepts" and more, things like not self distract watching films, listening to music, in your own thoughts ..., no sense restraint if you have sex, eat for taste, seek comfort and pleasure ...

Anyway as laypeople we have limitations, so we do the best that we can, ... the above is just my rationale of why "8 precepts"(sense restraint) are very recommendable but maybe it is possible to become sotapanna without sense restrain, who knows :shrug:


Metta.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:08 pm I've heard some saying that 8 precepts are bare-minimumfor stream entry. However, in the suttas it seem to suggest that 5 (or modified 5 precepts, right speech is expanded) are required.

Of course the more precepts one follows the better. But I'd like to know the minimum.
“Householder, when five fearful animosities have subsided in a noble disciple, and he possesses the four factors of stream-entry, and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble law, if he wishes he could by himself declare of himself: ‘I am one finished with hell, finished with the animal realm, finished with the sphere of ghosts, finished with the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as my
destination.’
“What are the five fearful animosities that have subsided? Householder, one who destroys life engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from destroying life, this fearful animosity has subsided.

“One who takes what is not given … … who engages in sexual misconduct … who speaks falsely … who indulges in wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence engenders, on account of such behaviour, fearful animosity pertaining to the present life and fearful animosity pertaining to the future life, and he experiences mental pain and displeasure. Thus for one who abstains from wine, liquor, and intoxicants that are a basis for negligence, this fearful animosity has subsided.
SN12.41 - Bhikkhu Bodhi translation
Thanks.
You do not need 8 precepts to be a sotapanna as there are many sotapanna who were only on 5 at the time of enlightenment. even after enlightenment you dont need to be on 8 because Visakha was a sotapanna but she had like 20 kids after enlightening as a sotapanna. it is absolutely easier to become a sotapanna on 8 precepts tho.

It is generally believed after one becomes a sotapanna you will follow the 5 precepts strictly. you do not need to follow the 5 precepts perfectly to reach that stage however, although it does help.
[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: "A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
User avatar
Mumfie
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:43 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Mumfie »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:08 pm I've heard some saying that 8 precepts are bare-minimum for stream entry.
The suttas say that the first three fetters are abandoned by the eightfold path. Therefore the requisite sīla for stream-entry is neither the pañcasīla nor the aṭṭhasīla, but rather the ājīvaṭṭhamakasīla, "the [sevenfold] virtue with livelihood as the eighth". This consists in abstention from:

Three kinds of micchā-kammanta
1. killing
2. stealing
3. sexual misconduct

Four kinds of micchā-vācā
4. false speech
5. divisive speech
6. harsh speech
7. frivolous speech

Micchā-ājīva
8. wrong livelihood

In other words, it's the sīla contained in the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
SarathW
Posts: 21238
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:14 am
Alex123 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:08 pm I've heard some saying that 8 precepts are bare-minimum for stream entry.
The suttas say that the first three fetters are abandoned by the eightfold path. Therefore the requisite sīla for stream-entry is neither the pañcasīla nor the aṭṭhasīla, but rather the ājīvaṭṭhamakasīla, "the [sevenfold] virtue with livelihood as the eighth". This consists in abstention from:

Three kinds of micchā-kammanta
1. killing
2. stealing
3. sexual misconduct

Four kinds of micchā-vācā
4. false speech
5. divisive speech
6. harsh speech
7. frivolous speech

Micchā-ājīva
8. wrong livelihood

In other words, it's the sīla contained in the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood.
How about the right view?
The way I understand all ten fetters are eliminated by the Noble Eightfold Path
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Mumfie
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:43 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Mumfie »

SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:26 am How about the right view?
It's part of the training in understanding, paññā-sikkhā. But the OP's query is about the training in virtue, sīla-sikkhā.
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:26 amThe way I understand all ten fetters are eliminated by the Noble Eightfold Path
Sure, but the OP's query is about stream-entry.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by santa100 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:54 am you do not need to follow the 5 precepts perfectly to reach that stage however, although it does help.
[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Stream-Winner, not subject to rebirth in states of woe, assured of enlightenment. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: "A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
One does need to follow and fulfill at least the Five Precepts as per AN 9.12, all 3 types of Sotapannas need to "fulfills virtuous behaviors" before they can attain the Fruit.

Regarding the case of Sarakani in SN 55.24, the Comy. further clarifies:
[347]Spk says that at the time of his death he was a fulfiller of the three trainings (in virtue, concentration, and wisdom). This implies that while he might have indulged in strong drink earlier, before his death he undertook strict observance of the precepts and thereafter attained stream-entry.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by DNS »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:14 am but rather the ājīvaṭṭhamakasīla, "the [sevenfold] virtue with livelihood as the eighth". This consists in abstention from:

Three kinds of micchā-kammanta
1. killing
2. stealing
3. sexual misconduct

Four kinds of micchā-vācā
4. false speech
5. divisive speech
6. harsh speech
7. frivolous speech

Micchā-ājīva
8. wrong livelihood

In other words, it's the sīla contained in the path factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood.
Interesting that the above includes four of the five precepts of the pañca-sīla, but not the one about taking intoxicating things. Does this mean that a sotapanna could be a light, casual drinker (of alcohol)?

But then again, there is the Sarakani sutta & Cmty that santa100 referenced and other suttas about sotapannas having "unbroken" precepts.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by TRobinson465 »

santa100 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:06 pm
One does need to follow and fulfill at least the Five Precepts as per AN 9.12, all 3 types of Sotapannas need to "fulfills virtuous behaviors" before they can attain the Fruit.

Regarding the case of Sarakani in SN 55.24, the Comy. further clarifies:
[347]Spk says that at the time of his death he was a fulfiller of the three trainings (in virtue, concentration, and wisdom). This implies that while he might have indulged in strong drink earlier, before his death he undertook strict observance of the precepts and thereafter attained stream-entry.
Oh what do you know, I stand corrected. Someone misled me a few years ago when they cited the sarakani sutta regarding that.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
santa100
Posts: 6814
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by santa100 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:40 pm
santa100 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:06 pm
One does need to follow and fulfill at least the Five Precepts as per AN 9.12, all 3 types of Sotapannas need to "fulfills virtuous behaviors" before they can attain the Fruit.

Regarding the case of Sarakani in SN 55.24, the Comy. further clarifies:
[347]Spk says that at the time of his death he was a fulfiller of the three trainings (in virtue, concentration, and wisdom). This implies that while he might have indulged in strong drink earlier, before his death he undertook strict observance of the precepts and thereafter attained stream-entry.
Oh what do you know, I stand corrected. Someone misled me a few years ago when they cited the sarakani sutta regarding that.
No worries. It's not as bad as the case of a well-known self-proclaimed Sotapanna here on DW who says Sotapannas can still deliberately/consciously kill sentient beings.
TRobinson465
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by TRobinson465 »

DNS wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:46 pm
Interesting that the above includes four of the five precepts of the pañca-sīla, but not the one about taking intoxicating things. Does this mean that a sotapanna could be a light, casual drinker (of alcohol)?
I seriously doubt that. Even discounting the suttas that say a sotapanna has pure precepts (most likely before but for sure after attaining stream entry). Even though I've never tried this myself, when I talk to regular lay meditation practitioners who've tried drinking just one glass after a while of being abstinent and meditating regularly for a while, they say it severely hinders thier mindfulness and knocks them down quite a few levels of concentration. Once you reach higher states of mindfulness you become a lot more sensitive to such intoxicants from what I've heard. I'd say there's no chance someone who's actually reached a stage of enlightenment would not have that kind of sensitivity if just regular daily lay meditators have it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Tho -
If sotapanna takes up a retirement (from practice) attitude, is he capable being drunk, lying, misconduct?

I would say, yeah, probably.

imo - abstain is still supported by being heedful, for sotapanna. There is still effort required to abstain.

Abstain from patricide, noble-blood on the other side, is no more. It is not supported by any manner of effort or heed.
Post Reply