5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
santa100
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by santa100 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 pm Tho -
If sotapanna takes up a retirement (from practice) attitude, is he capable being drunk, lying, misconduct?
But that's the cool thing (might also be a difficult thing) about attaining Sotapanna-hood: non-retrogression. Once one's gone pass this milestone, there's only one way: forward!
Jack19990101
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Buddha declares encompassing protection(fruit) on 5 behaviors only.

That leaves killing else, drinking, lying, idle chatting, misconduct are un-protected by stream-entry fruit.
Sotapanna still needs to utilize his own effort & skills to protect himself on those.
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

santa100 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:23 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 pm Tho -
If sotapanna takes up a retirement (from practice) attitude, is he capable being drunk, lying, misconduct?
But that's the cool thing (might also be a difficult thing) about attaining Sotapanna-hood: non-retrogression. Once one's gone pass this milestone, there's only one way: forward!
Yeah - retirement deserved, i would say. especially if it has taken a looong time.
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 pm Tho -
If sotapanna takes up a retirement (from practice) attitude, is he capable being drunk, lying, misconduct?

I would say, yeah, probably.

imo - abstain is still supported by being heedful, for sotapanna. There is still effort required to abstain.

Abstain from patricide, noble-blood on the other side, is no more. It is not supported by any manner of effort or heed.
A sotapanna would not do such. That's why they have "entered the stream". Sotapannas cannot fall back in their practice. The farthest one can get and fall back is the state of gotrabhu (change or lineage). Once u actually "enter the stream" u are incapable of falling back on the practice.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

I know what u r saying - u r saying 'eventuality'.
Yeah, eventually, All sotapanna will be after Enlightenment within 7 lifetimes.

Eventuality doesn't conflict with periodical departure, wandering away off Path.
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

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Important is jhana and insight
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:52 pm I know what u r saying - u r saying 'eventuality'.
Yeah, eventually, All sotapanna will be after Enlightenment within 7 lifetimes.

Eventuality doesn't conflict with periodical departure, wandering away off Path.
I'm not saying eventuality. Sotapanna is a stage of enlightenment. They are enlightened. Just not to the highest degree. There's no reason to think a sotapanna would fall back on the practice even for a period in the same way there's no reason to think an arahant would.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

It might be wording comprehension. Let's first clarify the topic using alternative verbatim.

Can a sotapanna stop voluntary effort specifically for enlightenment, for a day, for a week, for a month or for rest of this life?

My answer, is yes. They can chose to. Same way they can choose to have an extra gf, join army, do drugs so on. Sotapanna fruit offers no protection from those decisions.

As to arahant - Do arahant still make effort to enlightenment?
My answer is No. Arahant no longer makes effort to meditate. But they can choose to.
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

If died of a sotapanna, one almost inevitably has to leave active training for a long time.

King Sakha due to his duty to his deva citizens.
If reborn as a human, the long years of being a baby, childhood, school years, so on.
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Being a baby a child, it is extreme case of heedlessness.
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Mumfie
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by Mumfie »

DNS wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:46 pm Interesting that the above includes four of the five precepts of the pañca-sīla, but not the one about taking intoxicating things. Does this mean that a sotapanna could be a light, casual drinker (of alcohol)?
I don't think so.

When I wrote that the requisite sīla for stream-entry isn't the five precepts, I didn't mean that the five precepts are not required, but that they are not sufficient. On account of the much greater circumspection and restraint in speech that it entails, observance of the ājīvaṭṭhamakasīla is a more refined training than both the pañcasīla and the aṭṭhasīla. However, it's to be understood as supplementing these, not as supplanting them.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
RobertoAnces
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:29 pm
santa100 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:23 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:19 pm Tho -
If sotapanna takes up a retirement (from practice) attitude, is he capable being drunk, lying, misconduct?
But that's the cool thing (might also be a difficult thing) about attaining Sotapanna-hood: non-retrogression. Once one's gone pass this milestone, there's only one way: forward!
Yeah - retirement deserved, i would say. especially if it has taken a looong time.
IMO: stream-entry means understanding sensuality as something undesirable, as dukkha, an understanding that precepts are here to support and protect the practice, and yourself, something that if you don't follow you will see bad consequences fast because it conduit to "undesirable states of mind":
"MN 75" wrote: [...]
“So too, Māgandiya, formerly when I lived the home life, I enjoyed myself, provided and endowed with the five cords of sensual pleasure: with forms cognizable by the eye…with tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. On a later occasion, having understood as they actually are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of sensual pleasures, I abandoned craving for sensual pleasures, I removed fever for sensual pleasures, and I abide without thirst, with a mind inwardly at peace. I see other beings who are not free from lust for sensual pleasures being devoured by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with fever for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures, and I do not envy them nor do I delight therein. Why is that? Because there is, Māgandiya, a delight apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, which surpasses even divine bliss. Since I take delight in that, I do not envy what is inferior, nor do I delight therein.

“Suppose, Māgandiya, there was a leper with sores and blisters on his limbs, being devoured by worms, scratching the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterising his body over a burning charcoal pit. Then his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, brought a physician to treat him. The physician would make medicine for him, and by means of that medicine the man would be cured of his leprosy and would become well and happy, independent, master of himself, able to go where he likes. Then two strong men would seize him by both arms and drag him towards a burning charcoal pit. What do you think, Māgandiya? Would that man twist his body this way and that?”

“Yes, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because that fire is indeed painful to touch, hot, and scorching.”

“What do you think, Māgandiya? Is it only now that that fire is painful to touch, hot, and scorching, or previously too was that fire painful to touch, hot, and scorching?”

“Master Gotama, that fire is now painful to touch, hot, and scorching, and previously too that fire was painful to touch, hot, and scorching. For when that man was a leper with sores and blisters on his limbs, being devoured by worms, scratching the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, his faculties were impaired; thus, though the fire was actually painful to touch, he acquired a mistaken perception of it as pleasant.”

“So too, Māgandiya, in the past sensual pleasures were painful to touch, hot, and scorching; in the future sensual pleasures will be painful to touch, hot, and scorching; and now at present sensual pleasures are painful to touch, hot, and scorching. But these beings who are not free from lust for sensual pleasures, who are devoured by craving for sensual pleasures, who burn with fever for sensual pleasures, have faculties that are impaired; thus, though sensual pleasures are actually painful to touch, they acquire a mistaken perception of them as pleasant.
[...]
As I understand it an ariya would not see returning to coarse sensual pleasures as a well-deserved rest, he would see it as something bad, however progress is rarely linear, I suppose that everyone can fall due to circumstances, what cannot be returned to is to see that fall as something desirable, it will see it as an unpleasant state to get out of, this ensures that there is no going back. A cured leper can't see the pit of burning charcoal as a good place to enjoy again ...

So I suppose you mean practice is hard, you get tired, you have to relax yourself, but that relax ideally should be something don't make you fall "very down" something as giving a walk for distraction ... but not breaking precepts, not going to a pub to get drunk ..., too far, that would be shameful, break your samadhi and "would be painful" right now and in the future, you have to rebuild samadhi again (wholesome/blissful state of mind).


All the above ideally obviously, real life is a lot more trickier and less ideal/theoretical .


Metta.
santa100
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by santa100 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:31 pm My answer, is yes. They can chose to. Same way they can choose to have an extra gf, join army, do drugs so on. Sotapanna fruit offers no protection from those decisions.
Actually the Fruit does offer protection from those decisions. One common stock phrase describing the Sotapannas thru-out the Canon that folks continuously ignore is:
Canon wrote:he [the Sotapanna] possesses virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration
So, it seems that having an extra girlfriend for a spare, or doing drugs, or joining the army (with the exception of strictly working as a medic) just don't seem like the kind of acts that "are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration"!
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by DNS »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:00 pm I don't think so.

When I wrote that the requisite sīla for stream-entry isn't the five precepts, I didn't mean that the five precepts are not required, but that they are not sufficient. On account of the much greater circumspection and restraint in speech that it entails, observance of the ājīvaṭṭhamakasīla is a more refined training than both the pañcasīla and the aṭṭhasīla. However, it's to be understood as supplementing these, not as supplanting them.
That's what I thought too, just wanted to confirm. Thanks.

So as I always have said, it's not so easy to tell who is really a sotapanna (or higher), but easy to tell who is not. When someone deliberately breaks precepts, we can see that they are not or even if they truly believe that they are one, then we can see that they are overestimating their attainment.
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Re: 5 or 8 precepts are minimum for stream entry?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:31 pm It might be wording comprehension. Let's first clarify the topic using alternative verbatim.

Can a sotapanna stop voluntary effort specifically for enlightenment, for a day, for a week, for a month or for rest of this life?

My answer, is yes. They can chose to. Same way they can choose to have an extra gf, join army, do drugs so on. Sotapanna fruit offers no protection from those decisions.

As to arahant - Do arahant still make effort to enlightenment?
My answer is No. Arahant no longer makes effort to meditate. But they can choose to.
I don't really agree with that. Sotapannas cannot do the 5 anantairika kammas for the rest of their existence in samsara. I see no reason the state does not stop them from breaking precepts. You make a good point of the children tho. But I wasn't talking about that. A sotapanna who dies and is reborn a child is not reborn a sotapanna yes. I meant more like a sotapanna can't break the precepts while being a sotapanna, and they don't lose the attainment for the rest of their life. If you can lose the attainment you're not a sotapanna you're at highest at the gotrabhu stage. The idea is that sotapannas are so far along the path it's become ingrained in them so they can't really lose it or take a break and break precepts because it's ingrained. If it's not ingrained into your person it's not the stage of sotapanna.

In the same way they can't take another teacher than a Buddha because they know firsthand the Buddha is the supreme teacher thru their own deep attainment, a sotapanna would not choose to make those kinds of decisions as they're view of the world is different.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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