http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... us-to.html
I'm curious to hear what people think about 'extinguish'.
Good translation for nirvana? Bad? confusing?
MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
Nothing wrong with "extinguish" as long as clarifying what is being extinguished. When in doubt, stick with Bodhi's or Thanissaro's versions, not Sujato's.frank k wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:07 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... us-to.html
I'm curious to hear what people think about 'extinguish'.
Good translation for nirvana? Bad? confusing?
versus:Bodhi wrote:“Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; that one who is not himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is possible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; that one who is himself tamed, disciplined, with defilements extinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is possible.
Sujato wrote:Truly, Cunda, if you’re sinking down in the mud you can’t pull out someone else who is also sinking down in the mud. But if you’re not sinking down in the mud you can pull out someone else who is sinking down in the mud. Truly, if you’re not tamed, trained, and extinguished you can’t tame, train, and extinguish someone else. But if you’re tamed, trained, and extinguished you can tame, train, and extinguish someone else.
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
It appears to me that Sujato's translation of this is very inferior and confusing.santa100 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:52 pmNothing wrong with "extinguish" as long as clarifying what is being extinguished. When in doubt, stick with Bodhi's or Thanissaro's versions, not Sujato's.frank k wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:07 pm http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... us-to.html
I'm curious to hear what people think about 'extinguish'.
Good translation for nirvana? Bad? confusing?versus:Bodhi wrote:“Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; that one who is not himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is possible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; that one who is himself tamed, disciplined, with defilements extinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is possible.Sujato wrote:Truly, Cunda, if you’re sinking down in the mud you can’t pull out someone else who is also sinking down in the mud. But if you’re not sinking down in the mud you can pull out someone else who is sinking down in the mud. Truly, if you’re not tamed, trained, and extinguished you can’t tame, train, and extinguish someone else. But if you’re tamed, trained, and extinguished you can tame, train, and extinguish someone else.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
I always prefer Bhante Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation over Bhante Sujato's.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
The sutta explains that a person who has attained arahantship has developed this quality to its highest degree, and as a result, they are no longer attached to any particular person or group. They are also free from all defilements, including craving, aversion, and ignorance.
contexto
contexto
Last edited by gemmalyly on Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
I skipped through the transcript of 'anarchist'... not very inspiring.
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Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
It's good to remember teachers are people, and like other people they have mixed kamma.
I value Bhante Sujato's common english translations and website and am greatful for those as they've provided many benefits to my study.
Like any fruit with a bruise, mindfully eat around it.
I value Bhante Sujato's common english translations and website and am greatful for those as they've provided many benefits to my study.
Like any fruit with a bruise, mindfully eat around it.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
This translation suggests that there is an actual 'you' (self) to be extinguished, which sure feels like annihilationism:
Sujato wrote:Truly, if you’re not tamed, trained, and extinguished
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
That’s his translation of “attanā”, which means “with oneself” or “by oneself”. His translation doesn’t sound like annihilationism at all. Rather it captures the more general language the Buddha often used.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
Perhaps it's more accurate, but the impression I get is one of annihilationism. I thought there was no self to be extinguished in the first place?
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
There isn’t, but we still have to use language. That means using nouns, pro-nouns, verbs, adjectives etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
I think the flaw in rendering parinibbāpessati as "extinguishes" is that it treats a future tense verb as present tense, a passive voice verb as active voice, and a causative verb as non-causative.
Whatever English verb we opt for, the translation ought to reflect these grammatical features. So, if we use, say, the verb to distim, then the form of the English sentence ought to be something like:
"Gostak will cause Dosh to be/become distimmed".
"Gostak will make Dosh become distimmed."
"Gostak will bring about the distimming of Dosh."
Etc.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: MN 8 Sujato encouraging us to extinguish others if we become an arahant?
No self is annihilationism