Peṭakopadesa

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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Peṭakopadesa

Post by robertk »

I saw this post on another thread.
Interestingly the Peṭakopadesa, which possibly pre-dates the Abhidhamma works (as it contradicts them in places), does talk of sabhāva.
Unfortunately the Peṭakopadesa has no reliable, or even complete, edition in the Pali, let alone the English translation.

Nanamoli in his introduction xiii (PTS the Pitaka disclosure) writes that "all these editions are found..to be full of mistakes, some very gross, a great proportion of which are common to all editions [..] their version is worse and often consists not only of words wrong in context but often of meaningless jumbles of syllables. All this simply indicates that all four MSS stem originally from a single (..delapidated) ancient MS containing mistakes common to all...."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Peṭakopadesa

Post by Ceisiwr »

robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:24 am I saw this post on another thread.
Interestingly the Peṭakopadesa, which possibly pre-dates the Abhidhamma works (as it contradicts them in places), does talk of sabhāva.
Unfortunately the Peṭakopadesa has no reliable, or even complete, edition in the Pali, let alone the English translation.

Nanamoli in his introduction xiii (PTS the Pitaka disclosure) writes that "all these editions are found..to be full of mistakes, some very gross, a great proportion of which are common to all editions [..] their version is worse and often consists not only of words wrong in context but often of meaningless jumbles of syllables. All this simply indicates that all four MSS stem originally from a single (..delapidated) ancient MS containing mistakes common to all...."
What I had in mind was:

1) Somanassa is defined as piti (in the Jhāna), meaning that rapture is a feeling. This contradicts the Abhidhamma, where it’s a formation.

2) An alternate version of SN 48.40 which matches parallels in northern schools.

3) Vitarka & vicāra in the 1st Jhāna are the thoughts (or intentions) of renunciation, non-ill-will and harmlessness.

Interestingly the Peṭakopadesa that Ven. Buddhaghosa quotes from in the Vsm. is identified as a Mahīśāsaka text by the Paṭisambhidāmagga Gaṇṭhipada, meaning it’s a different version again from the one we know. We also know that other early schools also had their own versions, so it looks like a rather old text that was circulating in different traditions rather than being a distinctly Theravādin text.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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frank k
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Re: Peṭakopadesa

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:24 am I saw this post on another thread.
Interestingly the Peṭakopadesa, which possibly pre-dates the Abhidhamma works (as it contradicts them in places), does talk of sabhāva.
Unfortunately the Peṭakopadesa has no reliable, or even complete, edition in the Pali, let alone the English translation.

Nanamoli in his introduction xiii (PTS the Pitaka disclosure) writes that "all these editions are found..to be full of mistakes, some very gross, a great proportion of which are common to all editions [..] their version is worse and often consists not only of words wrong in context but often of meaningless jumbles of syllables. All this simply indicates that all four MSS stem originally from a single (..delapidated) ancient MS containing mistakes common to all...."
Unfortunately blind faith followers of LBT Theravada will use any excuse to avoid looking at evidence that shows contradictions with their corrupted later commentary and Abhidhamma texts that came long after the Buddha's death.

There are some textual corruptions in Kn Pe, such as mistranscribed etchings from palm leaves, etc.
But enough of it is there, that even if we don't have 100% of the original KN pe, there's enough there to show unequivocally the kāya in four jhānas is a physical body, that vitakk and vicāra are verbal thoughts in line with the 3 aspects of sammā sankappo (as canonical abhdihamma agrees with, but Vism. contradicts, heretically)

And yet LBT theravada calls themself "orthodox" and correct EBT interpretations (that agree with Ab Vb!) as "heretical".
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Peṭakopadesa

Post by Ceisiwr »

robertk wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:24 am I saw this post on another thread.
Interestingly the Peṭakopadesa, which possibly pre-dates the Abhidhamma works (as it contradicts them in places), does talk of sabhāva.
Unfortunately the Peṭakopadesa has no reliable, or even complete, edition in the Pali, let alone the English translation.

Nanamoli in his introduction xiii (PTS the Pitaka disclosure) writes that "all these editions are found..to be full of mistakes, some very gross, a great proportion of which are common to all editions [..] their version is worse and often consists not only of words wrong in context but often of meaningless jumbles of syllables. All this simply indicates that all four MSS stem originally from a single (..delapidated) ancient MS containing mistakes common to all...."
Here is what I had in mind (translation is my own)
Vitakkāti tayo vitakkā— nekkhammavitakko abyāpādavitakko avihiṁsāvitakko. Tattha paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, paṭiladdhassa vicaraṇaṁ vicāro. Yathā puriso dūrato purisaṁ passati āgacchantaṁ, na ca tāva jānāti eso itthīti vā purisoti vā yadā tu paṭilabhati itthīti vā purisoti vā evaṁ vaṇṇoti vā evaṁ saṇṭhānoti vā ime vitakkayanto uttari upaparikkhanti kiṁ nu kho ayaṁ sīlavā udāhu dussīlo aḍḍho vā duggatoti vā.

Directed thought is three thoughts – The thought of renunciation, the thought of ill-will and the thought of harming. In relation to these thinking is the first instance whilst investigating what has been obtained is reflection. For example when seeing a person approaching from far away, initially one does not know if they are a man or a woman. When, however, one knows them to be a man or a woman or, similarly, of a certain caste or appearance, one reflects and investigates further as to if they are of good character of bad character, wealthy or poor...

Imesu vitakkavicāresu ṭhitassa duvidhaṁ dukkhaṁ na uppajjati kāyikañca cetasikañca; duvidhaṁ sukhaṁ uppajjati kāyikañca cetasikañca. Iti vitakkajanitaṁ cetasikaṁ sukhaṁ pīti kāyikaṁ sukhaṁ kāyikoyeva. Yā tattha cittassa ekaggatā, ayaṁ samādhi. Iti paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ pañcaṅgavippahīnaṁ pañcaṅgasamannāgataṁ.

Supported by this thinking and reflecting the two-fold physical and mental pain does not arise, and the two-fold bodily and mental ease does arise. The mental ease generated by thought is the rapture and the bodily ease is just bodily. Whatever oneness of mind there is, this is composure. That is how the first meditation has abandoned five factors and possesses five factors.
https://suttacentral.net/pe7/pli/ms?lay ... ript=latin

This contradicts the Abhidhamma and commentaries, as rapture here is equated with somanassa whilst in the Abhihdamma rapture is a formation.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Peṭakopadesa

Post by Ceisiwr »

Also here
4th Meditation
588. Likewise (with the abandoning of bodily pleasure): in the first meditation the grief faculty ceases, and in the second meditation the pain faculty ceases, so (with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters upon and abides in the fourth meditation, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure, and the purity of whose mindfulness is due to onlooking-equanimity). Herein, the onlooking-equanimity was as yet unclarified owing to the [presence of the] four faculties, namely the pain faculty, grief faculty, pleasure faculty, and joy faculty. With the cessation of these there is onlooking-equanimity and awareness. Herein, it was owing to the pleasure faculty and the joy faculty that there was unmindfulness, and with their cessation he becomes possessed of mindfulness; and it is owing to the pain faculty and the grief faculty that there was unawareness, and with their cessation he becomes aware. So with the clarification (?) due to (i) onlooking-equanimity, [which is accompanied by (k) neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling,] he becomes (j) mindful and aware, and there is (e) unification of cognizance. This is called the fourth meditation.
https://suttacentral.net/pe7/en/nyanamo ... ight=false

This contradict the suttas since in SN 48.40 it is pain which ceases in the 1st Jhāna and domanassa in the 2nd. Here the Peṭakopadesa is relying on a text where this is reversed. We do see a version like this, but it's from parallels in other early schools. This means the author of the Peṭakopadesa was working with sutras from another canon, or at some later point SN 48.40 was edited.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Peṭakopadesa

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is also noteworthy, as the author is saying there is still a perception of gross form whilst in Jhāna
611. (4) What is the disappointment in the fourth meditation? Up to the Non-Owning Attainment these ideas have further co-attainments, and on that plane various types of views arise in foolish ordinary men who like [them]. And the meditations are interpenetrated by gross and subtle perceptions of form. Always sentimental Loving-kindness [etc.] is shared with each fraction and sub-fraction of meditation, and all the four accessories are difficult. And these meditations come about [through something else], each coming about in dependence on another [below it], and when come about here these ideas are [still] uncompleted, and with the sign not properly taken up these ideas fall away. And [since] these ideas are cessative, they do not arouse [emergent qualities]. The meditations belonging to these ideas have factors of [successive] cessation, and the signs may not be conformable [with (?)] the meditation-sign perception, and that [perception] comes about as something not previously obtained and [only] in virtue of the [right type of] meditator.
https://suttacentral.net/pe8/en/nyanamo ... ight=false
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Gwi II
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Re: Peṭakopadesa

Post by Gwi II »

Peṭakopadeso was written by: Mahākaccāno thero.

So, we need to believe its contents. Is there a
Book by modern-day bhikkhu that you trust or
a book by a well-known nonbuddhist author
whose content is of value? If we believe that,
Why doubt the work of Arahat? It is better we
Doubt nonbuddhist author, right? So, believe it
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