dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

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Bundokji
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dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

Believing in Kammic efficacy seems to be a prerequisite in the teachings, which applies to the three types of kamma: white, black and neither white nor black. Linguistically, efficacy is rooted in the idea of efficiency, which is relevant to what achieves ends with the least amount of time and energy. Dibba cakkhu is a supramundane ability that seems to confirm kammic efficacy both in worldly and spiritual matters.

In worldly matters, dibba cakkhu is explained in the following terms:
With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. They understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. They spoke ill of the noble ones; they had wrong view; and they acted out of that wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. These dear beings, however, did good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They never spoke ill of the noble ones; they had right view; and they acted out of that right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.’ And so, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. They understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds. This is the second knowledge that they attain. Ignorance is destroyed and knowledge has arisen; darkness is destroyed and light has arisen, as happens for a meditator who is diligent, keen, and resolute.
How does the idea of "efficacy" translates into worldly matters that makes believing in kammic efficacy plausible? Imagine there is a shop or government agency where people are queuing up waiting for their turn at the desk, then a sexy woman appears and the lustful employee decides to give her a "special treatment" with the hope of impressing her or some other fantasy. Here where beauty becomes advantageous in terms of time and energy. Same thing can be said about money, which buys the time and energy of others, sparing pain and allowing for more sensual pleasure by the owner. It is described "efficient" to the extent that it works as a general rule, except for the "leakage" of impermanence, which prevents it from reaching "fullness" metaphorically speaking.

In terms of spiritual currency, or kamma that is neither white or black (the N8FP) it promises fullness by somehow eliminating the leakage of impermanence, or by using impermanence in a way that achieves an end that is certain. A sotapanna has his reward in the spiritual currency of seven lives maximum, before attaining fullness of some sort (arahntship). Dibba cakkhu was equally used by the Buddha to identify people with little dust in their eyes, which again establishes the link between kammic efficacy and the Buddhist path.

It seems that kammic efficacy is inseparable from kammic manifestations in the realm of the sense in advantageous ways and that include Buddhas, except that these advantages are not easy to understand neither in the case of the arahant, nor in the case of the worldling. In the case of the arahant, the 32 signs of a great man are used to identify Arahants by mystics, and in some suttas in DN, they kept on looking for the 32nd sign until the Buddha revealed it to them! It is indeed unclear what advantages "long fingers" would provide a Buddha. In the case of worldling, the perceived advantages might turn into curses, leading to more attachments to what is impermanent, which could lead to more pain than one who lacked these advantages all along.

Finally, the whole thing does not provide solid basis as to what our belief in kammic efficacy should be based on. Take our self-congratulatory talk as an example, how lucky we are to be born as humans and encountering the Buddha's teachings, which should be based on wholesome kamma done in the past. It would have been in service of faith to have Buddhists more attractive that other sects, but a simple look at monasteries and Buddhist countries would reveal that they are pretty average, at least based on how they look.

So, in light of the above, how best to understand kammic efficacy?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:08 am Linguistically, efficacy is rooted in the idea of efficiency, which is relevant to what achieves ends with the least amount of time and energy. Dibba cakkhu is a supramundane ability that seems to confirm kammic efficacy both in worldly and spiritual matters.
I'm not sure whether the difference is relevant to your central question, but there is a difference between efficacy and efficiency, despite their origins in the same Latin word. The former means that something works, or has an effect; only the latter means the specialised sense of achieving ends with less time and energy. Something can be effective or efficacious while being extremely inefficient.
Bundokji
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:33 pm I'm not sure whether the difference is relevant to your central question, but there is a difference between efficacy and efficiency, despite their origins in the same Latin word. The former means that something works, or has an effect; only the latter means the specialised sense of achieving ends with less time and energy. Something can be effective or efficacious while being extremely inefficient.
Thank you for highlighting the difference. :anjali:

If something can be effective without being efficient, the only possibility i can think of is that it cannot be accelerated beyond its natural base in order to achieve the end. I would not say it is inefficient though, but that the way it works is against expectations that it can be ripened before its natural course.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Jack19990101
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re -
"How does the idea of "efficacy" translates into worldly matters that makes believing in kammic efficacy plausible?"
imo.
Human intellect(worldly matters) is not there yet - Quantum physics' spooky action in the distance, is closest to it.

Kamma & its result are like two particles entangled in this worldly matters.

Because our heart(our observing range) is too small. Hence there are distance, locality & time.

When both 'particles' are within perception reach simultaneously, it is no longer spooky.
It is like a mirror, or shadow, or two ends of a seesaw, we can reasonably see as normal.

By seeing this end still, we can logically believe the other end of stick being still too, even if the other end is not visible to us yet.

Further more -
if we stop measuring this end all together, the other end is to be believed beyond measurement too.
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote:Finally, the whole thing does not provide solid basis as to what our belief in kammic efficacy should be based on. Take our self-congratulatory talk as an example, how lucky we are to be born as humans and encountering the Buddha's teachings, which should be based on wholesome kamma done in the past. It would have been in service of faith to have Buddhists more attractive that other sects, but a simple look at monasteries and Buddhist countries would reveal that they are pretty average, at least based on how they look.
But if one's to accept the concept of kammic efficiency then one would have to agree that the manifestation of the rewards to one's positive kamma would mean one must be born in place and time where it's most efficient/convenient to reap those rewards. Hence you cannot limit your look at only monasteries and Buddhist countries. A John Doe of a previous life who did extraordinary amount of charity work and monetary donations would be born in time and place where it's most conducive/efficient to reap the fruits of his past kamma, which could be rebirths into wealthy countries in the west, not just some royal birth in Nepal or Thailand.
Jack19990101
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re - "the 32 signs of a great man"

I tend to believe this because another sutta, Buddha states paraphrasing -
this body is the old Kamma.

Hence if old kamma exhausting away by practice, it is reflective in this body.
Albeit it is not necessarily only by looks which is visible to third person view, it could be first person only view of sensations, feelings so on.

What body we get, quality of the body, is seemly the kamma vipaka in a nutshell.
Jack19990101
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Jack19990101 »

Tho it is detrimental to common human that
certain organ withers away, ceases to provide pleasure.

But take a look at the ahara sutta, how our sense organs are sustained.
It is a product of tanha - this is when we grow organs in the womb & being child.
it is sustained by tanha - this is when we grow mature.

It is indeed making sense if certain tanha is weak, certain organ will no longer be sustained.
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Bundokji »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:52 pm Re - "the 32 signs of a great man"

I tend to believe this because another sutta, Buddha states paraphrasing -
this body is the old Kamma.

Hence if old kamma exhausting away by practice, it is reflective in this body.
Albeit it is not necessarily only by looks which is visible to third person view, it could be first person only view of sensations, feelings so on.

What body we get, quality of the body, is seemly the kamma vipaka in a nutshell.
In DN30, the 32 marks are remembered by outsiders, but the knowledge of kamma-vipaka seems to require an insider knowledge - i.e dibba cakkhu:
Seers who are outsiders remember these marks, but they do not know the specific deeds performed in the past to obtain each mark.
Then, in this sutta, the Buddha went on to explain the deeds relevant to each mark. It happened that i have relatively short hands in this life, still has a long way for my palms to touch my knees without pending. The remedy to this deficiency is described as the following:
“Mendicants, in some past lives the Realized One was reborn as a human being. He regarded the gathered population equally. He knew what they had in common and what was their own. He knew each person, and he knew the distinctions between people. In each case, he made appropriate distinctions between people: ‘This one deserves that; that one deserves this.’ Due to performing those deeds he was reborn in a heavenly realm. When he came back to this state of existence he obtained these two marks: he has the proportional circumference of a banyan tree; and when standing upright and not bending over, the palms of both hands touch the knees."
As deficiency is the opposite of efficiency, would it make a good practice to check our own bodies against the descriptions stated in DN30, which would constitute faith in kammic efficacy? My calves tend to be like those of an antelope, which made me subject to mockery from peers when i was a kid. Little did i know at that time that i was quite accomplished in that regard.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by confusedlayman »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:11 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:52 pm Re - "the 32 signs of a great man"

I tend to believe this because another sutta, Buddha states paraphrasing -
this body is the old Kamma.

Hence if old kamma exhausting away by practice, it is reflective in this body.
Albeit it is not necessarily only by looks which is visible to third person view, it could be first person only view of sensations, feelings so on.

What body we get, quality of the body, is seemly the kamma vipaka in a nutshell.
In DN30, the 32 marks are remembered by outsiders, but the knowledge of kamma-vipaka seems to require an insider knowledge - i.e dibba cakkhu:
Seers who are outsiders remember these marks, but they do not know the specific deeds performed in the past to obtain each mark.
Then, in this sutta, the Buddha went on to explain the deeds relevant to each mark. It happened that i have relatively short hands in this life, still has a long way for my palms to touch my knees without pending. The remedy to this deficiency is described as the following:
“Mendicants, in some past lives the Realized One was reborn as a human being. He regarded the gathered population equally. He knew what they had in common and what was their own. He knew each person, and he knew the distinctions between people. In each case, he made appropriate distinctions between people: ‘This one deserves that; that one deserves this.’ Due to performing those deeds he was reborn in a heavenly realm. When he came back to this state of existence he obtained these two marks: he has the proportional circumference of a banyan tree; and when standing upright and not bending over, the palms of both hands touch the knees."
As deficiency is the opposite of efficiency, would it make a good practice to check our own bodies against the descriptions stated in DN30, which would constitute faith in kammic efficacy? My calves tend to be like those of an antelope, which made me subject to mockery from peers when i was a kid. Little did i know at that time that i was quite accomplished in that regard.
blue eyes is black eyes? anceint indians describe black as blue
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Bundokji
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Bundokji »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:27 pm blue eyes is black eyes? anceint indians describe black as blue
My eyes are dark brown, so i am not too far off this mark.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Jack19990101
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Jack19990101 »

I didn't read those 32 marks or related sutta in details but -
I got a point that practice vs non-practice, mastery vs non-mastery, it is reflective in body.
Another point is what a great man appears to one, is different to another.
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Bundokji »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:45 pm Another point is what a great man appears to one, is different to another.
Yes, this is quite possible. As mudras described as "mystical gestures", the thirty two marks might be visible only to people with psychic powers.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by confusedlayman »

Many brahmins dont have physic powers... they just read vedas and preach it
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Radix »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:08 am Finally, the whole thing does not provide solid basis as to what our belief in kammic efficacy should be based on.
/.../
So, in light of the above, how best to understand kammic efficacy?
I don't quite understand what you're getting at ...
But all in all, hiri and ottappa seem central to pretty much everything.

Although I don't know how adults can learn this if they didn't learn it as children already.
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Re: dibba cakkhu and kammic efficacy

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:33 pm
Bundokji wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:08 am Linguistically, efficacy is rooted in the idea of efficiency, which is relevant to what achieves ends with the least amount of time and energy. Dibba cakkhu is a supramundane ability that seems to confirm kammic efficacy both in worldly and spiritual matters.
I'm not sure whether the difference is relevant to your central question, but there is a difference between efficacy and efficiency, despite their origins in the same Latin word. The former means that something works, or has an effect; only the latter means the specialised sense of achieving ends with less time and energy. Something can be effective or efficacious while being extremely inefficient.
Effectiveness is about doing the right thing.
Efficiency is about doing something wihout wasting time, energy, and other resources.
It is possible to do the right thing efficiently, or inefficiently.
It is possible to do the wrong thing efficiently, or inefficiently.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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