Cults and Religions

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
TRobinson465
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by TRobinson465 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:38 pm IMO -

If there is no exit process defined and maintained with good faith, it is a cult.
If the process is more complicated than quitting a full-time job, it is a cult.
That's a pretty good definition imo. That would exclude a lot of the historical cults like Christianity. But would include Islam since the Quran has that bit about killing apostates. Although outside of radical Muslim nations that's not really enforced nowadays. So more like it's a cult in Muslim nations but not a cult in western democracies where that can't be/isn't enforced
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:38 pm IMO -

If there is no exit process defined and maintained with good faith, it is a cult.
If the process is more complicated than quitting a full-time job, it is a cult.
Members of Heaven’s Gate could leave and rejoin whenever they wanted.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by Bundokji »

I think a cult is often formed around a personality while religions around prophecy. We often say "personality cult" or "cult leader" whereas religious leaders are called "prophets".

The test of time that has been mentioned by other discussants seems to refer to a canon. In Islam for example, the religion is divided into two separate eras: a spiritual one and a political one. Cults usually do not reach the canonical stage as they either try to create a political system )and fail) or they do not bother and keep it within the cult. That political success of prophets makes the religion a self fulfilled prophecy - i.e they did not only try, but they also succeeded.

A prophet or cult leader is often believed to have contacted some deva, or found the true or most powerful deva, or the most useful deva for a certain group of people. Monotheism is rooted in polytheism in the sense that what appears to be an outright denial of the existence of other devas. is basically paying allegiances to one deva among other ones.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

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retrofuturist
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It's a bit of a blurry line.

If I recall correctly (and I make no promises that I do...), the terms "sect" and "cult" used to be more or less synonymous, until "sect" came to be equated more with "denomination", whereas "cult" came to be equated more with "narcissistic, psychopathic manipulation of easily malleable feebs".

:shrug: :alien: :toilet:

Metta,
Paul. :)
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SarathW
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by SarathW »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:38 pm IMO -

If there is no exit process defined and maintained with good faith, it is a cult.
If the process is more complicated than quitting a full-time job, it is a cult.
I think restriction in exiting the group could be more of a cult.
Even the whole nation could be a cult.
The secrecy and hierarchy are also other signs of a cult.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by Ontheway »

Depends on how you view the word "cult". When we said another religion is a cult, might as well people of other faith say we followers of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is a group of cult.

I don't think cult is sufficient to denote if a particular religious system is right or wrong.
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SarathW
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by SarathW »

a small group of people who have extreme religious beliefs and who are not part of any established religion
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... 20religion

It is like when Buddha had only five ascetics. :tongue:
Now Buddhist have 500 million followers so it is a religion.
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santa100
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by santa100 »

Cults vs Religions should be easy to tell under an accountant's eye, it's simple cost-benefit analysis. In a cult, there's more gain-to-loss ratio for a cult leader/founder, while it's the opposite for cult followers. For a religion, it's vice versa or at least the ratios break even. So when your "religious" leader starts mandating a significant cut of followers' regular salary toward his fund, or performing some "sacred rituals" with your wife or your daughters at night and in private, then it'd certainly smell more like a cult, not a religion.
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by DNS »

Not being able to exit is one characteristic of a cult, but not the only one. Here are some of the major characteristics (warning signs):
Characteristics of a Cult
Experts have determined a long list of characteristics of a cult to help people determine whether they or someone they know is part of a cult religious practice or political group. The following cult criteria and cult behaviors are the best way to determine what makes a cult:

A charismatic leader: Cults always follow a charismatic leader, living or dead, whose teachings are considered of the highest importance. This leader may be considered a genius, or may be considered a religious figure like a messiah or prophet.

Ideological purity: Members are strongly discouraged from questioning the cult's doctrine and any doubts are met with shame or punishment.

Conformity and control: Cult leaders often exercise an extreme degree of control over members' lives, including dictating what they can wear and eat and what kinds of relationships they can have. Conformity is also enforced by group members who police one another.

Mind-altering practices: Sleep deprivation, chanting, meditation, and drugs are often used to break down individuals' defenses and make them more susceptible to cult ideology.

Isolation and love-bombing: It is common for people in cults to be encouraged to cut contact with outsiders, including close family members. Within the cult, new members are often subjected to love-bombing, a practice where new initiates are showered with love and praise to bring them deeper into the cult and foster a sense of belonging.

Us-vs-them mentality: Cult members are often encouraged to see the cult as superior to life on the outside and to feel that those outside the cult lack understanding or insight.

Apocalyptic thinking: Preparation for a supposed apocalypse or cataclysmic event is a major characteristic of many cults, especially cult religions.
Time and energy: Followers are expected to dedicate huge amounts of time and energy (and often money) to the cult to the exclusion of their own lives, interests, jobs, and families.

One thing to keep in mind when looking through the traits of a cult is that a cult and a religious movement are not the same thing. Most religious movements do not isolate their practitioners from family, engage in love-bombing, encourage illegal and dangerous behaviors, or attempt to strongly control their members. Some cults position themselves as religious groups, but the distinction is important.
https://study.com/learn/lesson/cult-cha ... avior.html
Under ideological purity, I would add those groups that don't allow or recommend their followers from reading other material. The devotees are told to read only the material written by the "leader." I have seen some buddhist groups where their library or bookstore only contains books written by their spiritual leader (not saying that makes them a cult, but doesn't look good, imo).
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Radix
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by Radix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:10 pmI've always been interested in cults.
As for terminology, other posters have already pointed out the issues with it.

Other than that, I think a cult is first and foremost a matter of one's approach to something. People can have a cultist approach to pretty much anything -- as characterized by an obsessive all-or-nothing thinking and a heightened sense of existential endangerment. Two people could approach the same religio-spiritual group at the same time, yet approach it differently: one in a cultist manner, one not. Thus, they would have vastly different experiences of it.
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Radix
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by Radix »

DNS wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:45 pm Not being able to exit is one characteristic of a cult, but not the only one.
Do you know any "lapsed Catholics"? People who have distanced themselves from Catholicism decades ago, yet their minds are still operating like they were Catholics.
"Not being able to exit" is about far more than just about being able to physically leave.
Here are some of the major characteristics (warning signs):
I think such lists externalize the matter too much. They also trivialize religiosity as such.
Characteristics of a Cult
Experts have determined a long list of characteristics of a cult to help people determine whether they or someone they know is part of a cult religious practice or political group. The following cult criteria and cult behaviors are the best way to determine what makes a cult:

A charismatic leader: Cults always follow a charismatic leader, living or dead, whose teachings are considered of the highest importance. This leader may be considered a genius, or may be considered a religious figure like a messiah or prophet.

Ideological purity: Members are strongly discouraged from questioning the cult's doctrine and any doubts are met with shame or punishment.

Conformity and control: Cult leaders often exercise an extreme degree of control over members' lives, including dictating what they can wear and eat and what kinds of relationships they can have. Conformity is also enforced by group members who police one another.

Mind-altering practices: Sleep deprivation, chanting, meditation, and drugs are often used to break down individuals' defenses and make them more susceptible to cult ideology.

Isolation and love-bombing: It is common for people in cults to be encouraged to cut contact with outsiders, including close family members. Within the cult, new members are often subjected to love-bombing, a practice where new initiates are showered with love and praise to bring them deeper into the cult and foster a sense of belonging.

Us-vs-them mentality: Cult members are often encouraged to see the cult as superior to life on the outside and to feel that those outside the cult lack understanding or insight.

Apocalyptic thinking: Preparation for a supposed apocalypse or cataclysmic event is a major characteristic of many cults, especially cult religions.
Time and energy: Followers are expected to dedicate huge amounts of time and energy (and often money) to the cult to the exclusion of their own lives, interests, jobs, and families.

One thing to keep in mind when looking through the traits of a cult is that a cult and a religious movement are not the same thing. Most religious movements do not isolate their practitioners from family, engage in love-bombing, encourage illegal and dangerous behaviors, or attempt to strongly control their members. Some cults position themselves as religious groups, but the distinction is important.
https://study.com/learn/lesson/cult-cha ... avior.html
Under ideological purity, I would add those groups that don't allow or recommend their followers from reading other material. The devotees are told to read only the material written by the "leader." I have seen some buddhist groups where their library or bookstore only contains books written by their spiritual leader (not saying that makes them a cult, but doesn't look good, imo).[/quote]
In which religion or spirituality is this not the case?

Each of the above items is subject to interpretation and can come in a wide range of expressions. All of the above points apply to Buddhism as well.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by DNS »

Radix wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:05 pm Do you know any "lapsed Catholics"? People who have distanced themselves from Catholicism decades ago, yet their minds are still operating like they were Catholics.
"Not being able to exit" is about far more than just about being able to physically leave.
Actually, I do know some and they had no problem leaving it and all the theology and practice behind it. I know that may not be the case for all of them, though.
In which religion or spirituality is this not the case?
All of them. When I say "leader" I don't mean the founder; Buddha, Jesus, I meant some specific teachers, rinpoches, etc who only have and apparently only allow their books in the center's library or bookstore.
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:37 am
Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:38 pm IMO -

If there is no exit process defined and maintained with good faith, it is a cult.
If the process is more complicated than quitting a full-time job, it is a cult.
I think restriction in exiting the group could be more of a cult.
Even the whole nation could be a cult.
The secrecy and hierarchy are also other signs of a cult.
For sure. North Korea is a cult. Theres really no difference between political cults and religious cults. the only difference is the reason behind the cult.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
SarathW
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by SarathW »

TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:37 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:37 am
Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:38 pm IMO -

If there is no exit process defined and maintained with good faith, it is a cult.
If the process is more complicated than quitting a full-time job, it is a cult.
I think restriction in exiting the group could be more of a cult.
Even the whole nation could be a cult.
The secrecy and hierarchy are also other signs of a cult.
For sure. North Korea is a cult. Theres really no difference between political cults and religious cults. the only difference is the reason behind the cult.
Perhaps dictatorship also a form of a cult.
Now Democracy (not the so called democracy in country like Sri Lanka) is a sign of a cult.
In that regard may be we all are a type of cult.
Buddhist Sangha has a Vinaya code.
Can we say there are good cults and bad cults?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
TRobinson465
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Re: Cults and Religions

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:44 am
Perhaps dictatorship also a form of a cult.
Now Democracy (not the so called democracy in country like Sri Lanka) is a sign of a cult.
In that regard may be we all are a type of cult.
Buddhist Sangha has a Vinaya code.
Can we say there are good cults and bad cults?
I wouldnt consider democracy a cult, but there are political cults within democracies where the supporters of a political figure just have blind faith in them and follow them like their in a cult. Cult like devotion to something good like the triple gem is good. Most effective militaries require some level of cult like nationalism among its soldiers for them to be willing to die for thier country. The problem is cult is vague, like Nazi. People throw it around so much it loses its true meaning, because some people are incapable of coming up with a non-ad hominem to describe some1 or some group they dont like so they use these tired terms like Nazi, communist, racist, cult, etc and water down the meaning of those words over time. cult like devotion is found everywhere. some celebrities and TV shows here in the US have a cult following.

Generally speaking, when talking about cults people are talking about true political or religious cults like ISIS, scientology, Jonestown, N Korea, etc. where the leaders dont even see thier followers as having humanity, just as pawns to manipulate and control like in a sociopath playing a video game. Using this definition cults are always bad. But of course some groups also have some traits similar to true cults; charismatic leader, high level of devotion among the followers, ideological purity, the group having a high level of control over followers lives etc. But this isnt always bad. Having this kind of devotion to the triple gem is great and pretty much every religoius group has some degree of ideological purity, its just a matter of where the buck stops (is the church? the bible? etc.), as well as control over peoples lives (10 commandments, 5 precepts). The civil rights movement in the 60s in the US had many of these traits as well, civil rights took over the lives of some activists, it had a charismatic leader (MLK), a sense among the activists what they were doing was righteous (us vs them mentality) etc. Just like intelligence and charisma, cult like attributes in a social group can be used negatively as well as positively.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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