Savaka doesn't have a path

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auto
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Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:23 am Sariputta experienced it, not based on inference. If one attain the pure state/jhana (samma samadhi, not regular jhana); one will know the worlds, without even need to have psychic power to see.

An arahant will know anything that they want to know, even without having psychic powers. Otherwise, how do you think they let go all?

If it is only inference, that means they can't let go yet. Because there is no direct knowledge yet.
Sutta says Sariputta doesn't comprehend the mind of a buddha. In addition you can look up a sutta what says about the difference between savaka and buddha.
Regards to that sutta you concluded there is no difference, despite what the sutta said. When that sutta said savaka will acquire path later you are thinking timewise, that there is no further practice involved. Or that there is no difference since both are arhants.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn2.2/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Standing to one side, the god Kassapa recited this verse in the Buddha’s presence:
Ekamantaṁ ṭhito kho kassapo devaputto bhagavato santike imaṁ gāthaṁ abhāsi:

2.1
“Suppose a mendicant is a meditator, freed in mind.
“Bhikkhu siyā jhāyī vimuttacitto,
2.2
If they want to reach the heart’s peace,
Ākaṅkhe ce hadayassānupattiṁ;
2.3
having known the arising and passing of the world,
Lokassa ñatvā udayabbayañca,
2.4
healthy-minded, independent, that is their reward.”
Sucetaso anissito tadānisaṁso”ti.
mendicant who is freed in mind = savaka arhant
if he practices further will reach the heart's peace. At the moment i believe that is when the savaka will realize the path. Which this sutta means by 'later'
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.58/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And now the disciples live following the path; they acquire it later.
maggānugā ca, bhikkhave, etarahi sāvakā viharanti pacchā samannāgatā.

This is the difference between a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha, and a mendicant freed by wisdom.”
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

There are only 2 arahant.

Free both way and free by wisdom. There is no freed by mind only.

Free both way means freed by mind + wisdom. They can go to sannavedayitanirodha.

Free by wisdom, only samma samadhi (4th jhana) is enough. Doesn't need to have ayatana.

Freed by mind only means the job is not done. Just look MN 70.

Those SN 22.58 doesn't mean what you wrote. It just means that the status of Buddha and arahant are equal. The only different is the timing of achieving it. Ariyasavaka use the path that was explained by Samma sambuddha.

No difference between Arahant and Buddha. Freed both way or freed by wisdom. All of them has independent knowledge that are the same. The destruction of asava(s).

Sariputta is freed by wisdom arahant. Pannavimutti arahant.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by SarathW »

To me, it is just like the difference between Einstein and a common nuclear scientist.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

All ariyasavaka acquired the path by hearing true dhamma from Buddha or other ariya. Then depend on your faculties, one need to know what to develop next.

If one just meditates alone and hope to acquire the path without hearing from other ariya. That is impossible thing to do.

An ariya needs to see/know other ariya personally and hear the true dhamma.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

SarathW wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:50 am To me, it is just like the difference between Einstein and a common nuclear scientist.
O please don't denigrate the status of an arahant. They are the same in the eyes of Buddha and other ariya.

It is just the first one and the rest follow.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by cappuccino »

Free both ways means you can meditate on infinite nothingness


(Or other formless meditation)


Plus you know the teaching very well
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by SarathW »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:53 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:50 am To me, it is just like the difference between Einstein and a common nuclear scientist.
O please don't denigrate the status of an arahant. They are the same in the eyes of Buddha and other ariya.

It is just the first one and the rest follow.
Buddha is an Arahant.
Every Arahant is not Buddha.
However, the Nibbana is the same for Buddha and Arahant.
It is like e=mc(2) it is the same for Einsteine or a common nuclear scientist.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:34 am Sariputta is freed by wisdom arahant. Pannavimutti arahant.
Search 'vimuttacitto'
https://suttacentral.net/mn74/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Now at that time Venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Buddha fanning him.
Then he thought,
“It seems the Buddha speaks of giving up and letting go all these things through direct knowledge.”
Reflecting like this, Venerable Sāriputta’s mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping.
Iti hidaṁ āyasmato sāriputtassa paṭisañcikkhato anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimucci.
What sariputta did above is having wisdom, into action(iriyati)*, by someone(sariputta) who has already accessed the teaching(fathomed dhamma), same point for sekha is the arising of the dhamma eye.

*regards to feelings. Seeing with wisdom that if someone feels a pleasant feeling and unskillful qualities decline and skillful .. rise, then one should enter and remain that feeling. etc
Freed by wisdom(or freed by mind, same) have comprehended the action by wisdom. And doesn't actually enter(by action) the supreme sanctuary(heart's peace) by himself, but what one has is independence regards to this by having meditative experiences what transcend form etc.

Difference is between meditative experience and actual behavior. Perhaps that means freed by wisdom acquires path later.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

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Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:52 am If one just meditates alone and hope to acquire the path without hearing from other ariya. That is impossible thing to do.

An ariya needs to see/know other ariya personally and hear the true dhamma.
blasphemy
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:34 am Those SN 22.58 doesn't mean what you wrote. It just means that the status of Buddha and arahant are equal. The only different is the timing of achieving it. Ariyasavaka use the path that was explained by Samma sambuddha.
you wouldn't come up with it by yourself but with the buddha's help is the difference too. If i say to you to come aware, it is different than coming aware on your own.
Problem is you don't even see an issue about it and just provide that it is time difference.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:50 pm
Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:52 am If one just meditates alone and hope to acquire the path without hearing from other ariya. That is impossible thing to do.

An ariya needs to see/know other ariya personally and hear the true dhamma.
blasphemy
Show me in sutta who entered the stream by meditation in Sutta. Please.

I know you can’t find any. All entered the stream by hearing true dhamma from other ariya. These are 4 factor of entering the stream.

But for getting stream enterer into non returner or arahant, there are plenty.

Sariputta and Maha moggalana entered by hearing dhamma from ven Asajji. Then progress to arahant with guidance of Buddha.
Last edited by Joe.c on Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:39 pm
Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:34 am Sariputta is freed by wisdom arahant. Pannavimutti arahant.
Search 'vimuttacitto'
https://suttacentral.net/mn74/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Now at that time Venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Buddha fanning him.
Then he thought,
“It seems the Buddha speaks of giving up and letting go all these things through direct knowledge.”
Reflecting like this, Venerable Sāriputta’s mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping.
Iti hidaṁ āyasmato sāriputtassa paṭisañcikkhato anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimucci.
What sariputta did above is having wisdom, into action(iriyati)*, by someone(sariputta) who has already accessed the teaching(fathomed dhamma), same point for sekha is the arising of the dhamma eye.

*regards to feelings. Seeing with wisdom that if someone feels a pleasant feeling and unskillful qualities decline and skillful .. rise, then one should enter and remain that feeling. etc
Freed by wisdom(or freed by mind, same) have comprehended the action by wisdom. And doesn't actually enter(by action) the supreme sanctuary(heart's peace) by himself, but what one has is independence regards to this by having meditative experiences what transcend form etc.

Difference is between meditative experience and actual behavior. Perhaps that means freed by wisdom acquires path later.
Mn 74, sariputta just heard the dhamma from Buddha and attained the arahant (not by meditating). That is not cetovimutti. This is pannavimutti. Comprehending with wisdom.

But Maha moggalana is freed both way. Freed by mind +wisdom need to achieve sannavedayitanirodha. Progressively removed vedana and sanna as well.

If one is freed by mind only, any jhana will do (1st jhana or higher). But 1st -3rd jhana are perturbable, one can fall back to sensual realm again. Only 4th jhana and above are not.

What Ven Sariputta did is freed with wisdom by stopping all asava(s).

Anyway good luck to you.

Like i said i have investigated many Abhidhamma teacher. Sorry to tell none has understood the basic teaching even the precepts yet.

If the precepts haven’t been understood, how can one understand the higher teaching? That is just impossible.

O btw, all the teaching can be verified by one who has developed faculties here and now. So anyone can be tested now.

The ultimate is
Vijjacaranasampanno
Are they said as they do as they think or not? If they are not, then they can’t be a good person yet.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Mumfie »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:52 am An ariya needs to see/know other ariya personally and hear the true dhamma.
Just to clarify ... in the case of the stream-entry of Sāriputta...

Are you saying that it only occurred because the ye dhammā hetuppabhavā... verse was spoken to Sāriputta by an ariyan, Assaji, and that it would not have occurred if the very same verse had been spoken to him by, say, Devadatta?

Or do you mean that it would simply never have occurred to a non-ariyan like Devadatta to speak such a verse to Sāriputta?
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Savaka doesn't have a path

Post by Joe.c »

Mumfie wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:21 am Just to clarify ... in the case of the stream-entry of Sāriputta...

Are you saying that it only occurred because the ye dhammā hetuppabhavā... verse was spoken to Sāriputta by an ariyan, Assaji, and that it would not have occurred if the very same verse had been spoken to him by, say, Devadatta?

Or do you mean that it would simply never have occurred to a non-ariyan like Devadatta to speak such a verse to Sāriputta?
See the formula in many sutta.
MN 109 wrote:It’s when an unlearned ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. They regard feeling as self, self as having feeling, feeling in self, or self ...
...
It’s when a learned noble disciple has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They don’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form
....
Devadatta is not an ariya. He is just puthujjana. Puthujjana doesn't see any ariya, even the ariya stand in front of him. Puthujjana doesn't care about true dhamma.

So if one want to learn true dhamma, one need to seek an ariya, a good person (sapurissa).

So if puthujjana say the verse to another puthujjana, it won't do anything.

But, a puthujjana who see/know/associate with ariya. At that time, he is not a puthujjana anymore. He has become ariya, entered the stream (at the very least a stream enterer, depending on their faculties development before can be higher).

So if one want to learn, keep learning. But at one point, one should be able to identify the Ariya here and now (alive ariya, can't be death one).

If you still learn from puthujjana, then alas puthujjana only identify another puthujjana. Puthujjana can't identify any ariya with 100% confidence. There will always doubt.

Puthujjana will not know the complete path, always doubt whether it is true teaching. Late or early teaching and many more arguments. 😅

Puthujjana will not care about triple gems, other ariya.

Please don't say you can recall your past about your ariyan status. This only reserve for samma sambuddha or Pacceka Buddha. It is not possible at this time.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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