Karma of killing but without ill intention

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
SarathW
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:41 am
asahi wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:59 am His mind's intention lead to bodily action is just doing a daily normal job like what other occupation is .
I think you're confusing intention and motive. Different abattoir workers may have wildly different motives for making their livelihood in the way they do, but in their acts of killing there's no difference in their respective intentions. An intention to kill a sheep is an intention to kill a sheep regardless of whether it arises in a halal slaughterer, a kosher slaughterer or a secular humanist slaughterer.
Thanks.
For instance, if farmer spray insecticides will that be a bad kamma?
Is he protecting crops or killing insects?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:59 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:18 pm The issue here is indeed intention. Whatever the beliefs of the slaughterer, the ineradicable fact is that s/he intends the animal to die, and follows through with it.
I agree generally with above said , but a muslim intention is to do a job in his mind set some sort like cutting vegetables and not something like intending in killing a human being . 🤔
Sure. The intention to cut vegetables, to kill an animal, and to kill a human being all have different intentions, but in each case the intention is there.
But lets see , the Buddha idea is saying what matters in producing rebirth is intention (of craving) .
OK, although in AN 6.63 the intention is mentioned without the craving.
That’s why he said “I define deeds (karma) as intention.
The Pali (in AN 6.63) is: Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi. What this means exactly is subject to some disagreement. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it as "It is volition, monks, that I call kamma", and adds in his notes:
This should probably be understood to mean that volition is a necessary factor in creating kamma, not that volition on its own invariably and in all instances creates kamma. It can thus be seen as a counterfoil to the Jain position that any action, even an unintentional one, creates kamma...The Chinese parallel...says: "How does one understand kamma? There are two kinds of kamma: intention and the kamma [created] when one has intended...
But if we take cetana to mean intention, it is in no sense a counterfoil to the Jain position, nor is the Chinese parallel helpful in deciding this. Nor can we automatically assume that cetana is intention; the P.E.D. also gives "mind in action, thinking as active thought..."

More importantly, Thanissaro thranslates it more simply and directly as
Intention, I tell you, is kamma
This seems to be saying that the rwo are synonymous; if there is intention, then it is kamma. And then there is the next line with an ambiguous absolutive Cetayitvā. Sujato sides with BB, in rendering this:
For after making a choice one acts
But look at what BB says about absolutives in Reading the Buddha's discourses in Pali (p.33):
The primary use of the absolutive is to express an action done by the subject of the sentence prior to the action denoted by the main verb; on occasion the action described by the absolutive may occur at the same time as the action denoted by the main verb
And this is precisely how Thanissaro sees it:
Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect.
For me, what decides it is the fact that if the Buddha said that intention (or even some other form of mentation) was merely a necessary condition for kamma, we are left wondering what is the extra factor which is required for it to be kammic. We are given lots of examples of kamma, but apart from that passage, and maybe others like it, there is no definition of what this incredibly important mental factor actually is.
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

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SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 am
Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:41 am
asahi wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:59 am His mind's intention lead to bodily action is just doing a daily normal job like what other occupation is .
I think you're confusing intention and motive. Different abattoir workers may have wildly different motives for making their livelihood in the way they do, but in their acts of killing there's no difference in their respective intentions. An intention to kill a sheep is an intention to kill a sheep regardless of whether it arises in a halal slaughterer, a kosher slaughterer or a secular humanist slaughterer.
Thanks.
For instance, if farmer spray insecticides will that be a bad kamma?
Is he protecting crops or killing insects?
Yes, there will be bad kamma involved. He is killing insects (intention) in order to protect crops (motive). Its probably "kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result", as per AN 4.232.
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

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Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:58 am For me, what decides it is the fact that if the Buddha said that intention (or even some other form of mentation) was merely a necessary condition for kamma, we are left wondering what is the extra factor which is required for it to be kammic. We are given lots of examples of kamma, but apart from that passage, and maybe others like it, there is no definition of what this incredibly important mental factor actually is.
Yes , it seems intention by itself isnt a self sufficient condition in the process as other criteria needs to be counted as well . It is like one misconception about eating meats is in itself a kind of bad karma , an guilty act (out of craving) because the intention is to satisfy the desire for meats flavors . The rationale behind probably is if you dont consume meats there would be no killing or at least reduce some slaughtering ?!
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

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I see it like there are actions, like for example the action of a strong wind over a fragile building; and there are intentional actions, like for example the action of somebody taking down a fragile building of his enemy neighbor. The first action isn't kamma while the second one is. So when we speak of kamma we are not referring to a thing done but to an act of will. To me in the example, kamma is the intention to make damage. Whether it gets finally done or not would mean bodily kamma or just mental kamma, but kamma nonetheless when there is intention to make the damage.
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:03 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 am
Mumfie wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:41 am

I think you're confusing intention and motive. Different abattoir workers may have wildly different motives for making their livelihood in the way they do, but in their acts of killing there's no difference in their respective intentions. An intention to kill a sheep is an intention to kill a sheep regardless of whether it arises in a halal slaughterer, a kosher slaughterer or a secular humanist slaughterer.
Thanks.
For instance, if farmer spray insecticides will that be a bad kamma?
Is he protecting crops or killing insects?
Yes, there will be bad kamma involved. He is killing insects (intention) in order to protect crops (motive). Its probably "kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result", as per AN 4.232.
Perhaps killing insects while preparing the ground for cultivation does not amount to bad karma.
The intention is to prepare the soil for cultivation.
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:03 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 am
Thanks.
For instance, if farmer spray insecticides will that be a bad kamma?
Is he protecting crops or killing insects?
Yes, there will be bad kamma involved. He is killing insects (intention) in order to protect crops (motive). Its probably "kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result", as per AN 4.232.
Perhaps killing insects while preparing the ground for cultivation does not amount to bad karma.
The intention is to prepare the soil for cultivation.
Unless you are actively using insecticides to kill the insects, or deliberately squashing them, the killing of the insects is then incidental. You are not intending to kill them. It's like driving, when insects happen to get killed. There is no intention to kill.

"The cut worm forgives the plow" - William Blake.
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:09 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:03 am

Yes, there will be bad kamma involved. He is killing insects (intention) in order to protect crops (motive). Its probably "kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result", as per AN 4.232.
Perhaps killing insects while preparing the ground for cultivation does not amount to bad karma.
The intention is to prepare the soil for cultivation.
Unless you are actively using insecticides to kill the insects, or deliberately squashing them, the killing of the insects is then incidental. You are not intending to kill them. It's like driving, when insects happen to get killed. There is no intention to kill.

"The cut worm forgives the plow" - William Blake.
I have heard when you cut a worm it makes (birth of a new worm) two worms. (this is not a joke) :D
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

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SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:21 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:09 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:00 pm

Perhaps killing insects while preparing the ground for cultivation does not amount to bad karma.
The intention is to prepare the soil for cultivation.
Unless you are actively using insecticides to kill the insects, or deliberately squashing them, the killing of the insects is then incidental. You are not intending to kill them. It's like driving, when insects happen to get killed. There is no intention to kill.

"The cut worm forgives the plow" - William Blake.
I have heard when you cut a worm it makes (birth of a new worm) two worms. (this is not a joke) :D
Don't go around cutting them up to help them! :)

Apparently, they can only re-grow a tail:

https://www.earthwormwatch.org/blogs/it ... f%E2%80%A6
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by SarathW »

For some worms, being cut between the head end and tail end will result in two fully functioning worms after the missing parts regenerate.
https://www.reconnectwithnature.org/new ... t-in-half/
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:35 pm
For some worms, being cut between the head end and tail end will result in two fully functioning worms after the missing parts regenerate.
https://www.reconnectwithnature.org/new ... t-in-half/
OK, you win, but still don't do it! :lol:
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:38 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:35 pm
For some worms, being cut between the head end and tail end will result in two fully functioning worms after the missing parts regenerate.
https://www.reconnectwithnature.org/new ... t-in-half/
OK, you win, but still don't do it! :lol:
Don't you like making babies? :tongue:
Actually I heard of a person who did this to get more worms in his garden. :shrug:
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

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asahi wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:58 pm Kamma is intention . Say a muslim is a butcher , for him slaughtering the animals is part of his job to earn a living . According to Islam that is not something considered bad and also he has no ill intention , he has no concept of buddhism precept , would that be something of grave offences of severe kamma by itself and in comparing with a buddhist whom observed n kept precepts yet killing animals ?
Business in meat is against a lay person's livelihood:
“Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

“These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.” - AN 5.177
Then it's mentioned butchers and hunters went to hell on account of those deeds:
That being used to be a cattle butcher...bird hunter...sheep butcher... pig butcher...deer hunter right here in Rājagaha. As a result of that deed he burned in hell for many years, many hundreds, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of years. Now he experiences the residual result of that deed in such an incarnation.” - SN 19.1-19.6
So it's impossible that someone could go to a higher state on the account of being a butcher.

What's meant by no ill intention? I think that only applies to accidental killings.
The intention is to kill the animal, it's not an accident or by mistake.

Islam isn't really a comprehensive teaching like Theravada Buddhism so some Muslims oppose killing animals while others do not. No one really knows what it really says.
“Bhikkus, the one who encourages someone in a poorly explained teaching and training, the one who they encourage, and the one who practices accordingly all make much bad karma. Why is that? Because the teaching is poorly explained.” - AN 1.320
Muhammad said something like "Who is the most favored of God? He from whom the greatest good comes to His creatures" so some Muslims oppose killing animals.

In the past most people killed animals for food survival purposes now in modern times with modern day conveniences there is no need for anyone to kill animals for food survival purposes...many people in modern times go hunting and fishing for fun or recreational purposes meaning they kill animals for fun not for food.
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by pudai »

asahi wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:58 pm Kamma is intention . Say a muslim is a butcher , for him slaughtering the animals is part of his job to earn a living . According to Islam that is not something considered bad and also he has no ill intention , he has no concept of buddhism precept , would that be something of grave offences of severe kamma by itself and in comparing with a buddhist whom observed n kept precepts yet killing animals ?
If the animals aren't killed for a sacrifice to offer up to some deity or belief in a deity then historically Buddhism has no issue with it.

Using your example say the same person is killing for Allah and setting up a tabernacle for such burnt offerings? The act would be deemed impure. In reality eating is eating making the process something else? Ceases to be reality and turns into delusion... As if Allah or anyone else cannot be fed or served by the servants there that exist attending? If not then demanding to be fed by servants etc would fall under wrong effort and whatever firmament that exists would likely fall into a hell fitting the kamma... Although not all present there would fall with him it is also likely anyone that followed such a person there if so attached would also follow or fall due to attachment... not attached? They wont.

It is my sincere wish that a carkavartin that knows of one such heaven about to fall cordially invite you to it, so you can see and experience such a thing for oneself.

peace be with you
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Re: Karma of killing but without ill intention

Post by Sha Bac »

SarathW wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:36 pm You can kill un-knowingly.
You can't kill unintentionally.
What if you intend it but do not realize the means?
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