What is the difference between saññā & citta vipallāsā ?

[Alex123]

Hello all,
In AN 4.49 it mentions 3 levels of perversions (saññā, citta, diṭṭhi) for anicca, dukkha, anatta and asubha.

there are these four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view. Which four? ‘Constant’ with regard to the inconstant is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. ‘Pleasant’ with regard to the stressful.… ‘Self’ with regard to not-self.… ‘Attractive’ with regard to the unattractive is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. These are the four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view.

What exactly is perversion of perception (saññā-vipallāsā)?
What exactly is perversion of the mind (citta-vipallāsā)?
What is the difference between them?

For example, to see nicca in anicca, how would that perversion manifest itself in saññā & citta vipallāsā?
I understand that diṭṭhi-vipallāsā would manifest itself as full blown wrong view such as ("such and such is constant because xyz..."). But how would it manifest on the level of saññā and citta?

Thanks

[Ceisiwr]

What exactly is perversion of perception (saññā-vipallāsā)?

When we see an attractive person whom we want a relationship with we don’t see them in terms of someone who will die, but rather someone whom we can be with. On a deeper level we see something substantial, something as existing. It’s good to bear in mind that we never actually perceive permanence or impermanence (nor dukkha or anatta either). Rather these are concepts that we apply to experience.

[Alex123]

When we see an attractive person whom we want a relationship with we don’t see them in terms of someone who will die, but rather someone whom we can be with.

How exactly does that occur? Does one actually think "such and such is beautiful", or what?

[Ceisiwr]

When we see an attractive person whom we want a relationship with we don’t see them in terms of someone who will die, but rather someone whom we can be with.

How exactly does that occur? Does one actually think "such and such is beautiful", or what?

Well perception of beauty is different. There you are focusing on their attractive features or “signs”.

[SarathW]

I think there are four types of Sanna vipallasa.
I can't remember the exact source and the terms.

- Seen things as a whole (man, tree, etc?
- Seen life and growth etc as self
- Seen moving animals and humans as a self

Another point is in my opinion vipallasa are eliminated by practicing Satipathana.

- Mindfulness of the body eliminate Ditthi and Subha vipallasa
- Mindfulness of the feeling eliminate Sanna vipallasa
- Mindfulness of the mind eliminate Citta viapallasa
- Mindfulness of the Dhamma eliminated the Attha vipallasa

Some hit-and-miss ideas and hope this will guide you in the right direction.

[Alex123]

I think there are four types of Sanna vipallasa.

There are four types of vipallasa (seeing nicca in anicca, etc).
And there are 3 levels for each (sanna, citta, ditthi). My question was specifically about the levels. While I understand what ditthi level is (full blown world view), the difference between sanna and citta levels are not as evident. Especially I am not sure what citta (as in citta-vipallasa) means in this context.

[Alex123]

I found an article that somewhat explains it. I was looking something along the lines of:

The distortions of the mind work on three levels of scale. First, distortions of perception (sañña-vipallasa) cause us to misperceive the information coming to us through the sense doors. We might mistake a rope by the path as a snake, for example. Normally such errors of vision are corrected by a more careful scrutiny, but sometimes these sensory mistakes are overlooked and remain.

Distortions of thought (citta-vipallasa) have to do with the next higher level of mental processing, when we find ourselves thinking about or pondering over things in our minds. The mind tends to elaborate upon perception with these thought patterns, and if our thoughts are based upon distortions of perception, then they too will be distorted.

Eventually such thought patterns can become habitual, and evolve into distortions of view (ditthi-vipallasa). We might become so convinced that there is a snake by the path that no amount of evidence to the contrary from our own eyes or reason, nor the advice of others, will shake our beliefs and assumptions. We are stuck in a mistaken view. - Translator’s Note from Andrew Olendzki

[SarathW]

Actually, I saw this in access to insight but did not include it in my post as in my opinion it is not what you need.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .olen.html

Buddha equates the sanna to a mirage and the consciousness to a magician's trick.
For instance, the perception of sight to a normal person, color-blind person, or person wairing a colored glass or not enough light can make different perceptions of the same object.
We don't understand that the color is a dependently originated phenomenon so it is the sanna villas.
Consciousness is the same.

Perception is knowing red. blue, bittersweet is depend on each sense.
Consciousness is the knowledge of these things with different senses.
Sorry, I can't give an exact answer.

[frank k]

Hello all,
In AN 4.49 it mentions 3 levels of perversions (saññā, citta, diṭṭhi) for anicca, dukkha, anatta and asubha.

there are these four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view. Which four? ‘Constant’ with regard to the inconstant is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. ‘Pleasant’ with regard to the stressful.… ‘Self’ with regard to not-self.… ‘Attractive’ with regard to the unattractive is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view. These are the four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view.

What exactly is perversion of perception (saññā-vipallāsā)?
What exactly is perversion of the mind (citta-vipallāsā)?
What is the difference between them?

For example, to see nicca in anicca, how would that perversion manifest itself in saññā & citta vipallāsā?
I understand that diṭṭhi-vipallāsā would manifest itself as full blown wrong view such as ("such and such is constant because xyz..."). But how would it manifest on the level of saññā and citta?

Thanks

I pulled the citta section from mind reading in 6 higher knowledges, but it's the same exact passage that occurs in satipatthana citta-anu-passana:
https://lucid24.org/sted/6ab/6ab3/index.html

I also checked if bodhi had any relevant footnotes to your question in his translation, he did not.
Ordinarily, I would say that if you sorted the sequence in terms of causality, I would think
a deluded citta, sa-moha-citta precedes the perverted perceptions, which precedes perverted views.
But since the sutta names the three in the order of perception, mind, then view,
in this case I think citta is more similar to the role of vitakka/verbal thought, such as in MN 18.
Where you have eye, visible object, consciousness, contact, perception, thought, proliferation.

[Joe.c]

Sanna = sensation

Citta= sanna + vedana

Ditthi = orientation.

When one purified the body (sila), then mind (vedana first, then sanna). Their view will be well purified. Aka become arahant.

Start from N8FP, by hearing true dhamma. Otherwise these 3 will always distorted for common folks

[SarathW]

Sanna = sensation

Citta= sanna + vedana

Ditthi = orientation.

When one purified the body (sila), then mind (vedana first, then sanna). Their view will be well purified. Aka become arahant.

Start from N8FP, by hearing true dhamma. Otherwise these 3 will always distorted for common folks

I do not think the highlight is accurate.

[Joe.c]

I do not think the highlight is accurate.

It is ok if you don’t know.

Just look at citta sankhara on SN 41.6 or mn 43 or the anapanasati step by step. Those needs to follow through step by step.

Good luck.

[Ceisiwr]

Sanna = sensation

Citta= sanna + vedana

Ditthi = orientation.

When one purified the body (sila), then mind (vedana first, then sanna). Their view will be well purified. Aka become arahant.

Start from N8FP, by hearing true dhamma. Otherwise these 3 will always distorted for common folks

I don't think sañña is "sensation".

[Joe.c]

I don't think sañña is "sensation".

Ok. You can believe whatever you want.

When one reach Nevasannanasanna, you will know. It is just sensation.

Sanna need to be reduced from human level up to highest level.

But if you are still human, you might call it perceiving. You might see your family, car, house. And has certain feeling about them. And also consider them as yours.