nossūti

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Sam Vara
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nossūti

Post by Sam Vara »

Can anyone please help me with this one?

In MN 38, we have the phrase:

“bhūtamidaṃ nossūti, bhikkhave, kaṅkhato uppajjati vicikicchā”ti?

This is variously translated as

“From doubt, monks, does the perplexity arise: ‘This that has come to be, might it not be?’”

“Bhikkhus, does doubt arise when one is uncertain thus: ‘Has this come to be’?”

“Monks, does doubt arise from uncertainty about whether or not this has come into existence?”

"From the doubt — 'Has this come to be?' — does uncertainty arise?"

and

“From doubt, monks, does the perplexity arise: ‘This that has come to be, might it not be?’”

My question is, what is nossūti in this sentence? I take it that the 'ti is ending the quote as "thus", but what is the main bit?

:anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: nossūti

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:21 pm
nossu [no + ssu] = “not sure”
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: nossūti

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:21 pm
nossu [no + ssu] = “not sure”
Ah, yes, that would make sense! Thank you, C. :anjali:

Does ssu feature anywhere else? I can't find references in the PED...
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Re: nossūti

Post by ssasny »

Hi,
This is a sandhi of

no (=nu) + su (vedic svid) an interrogative particle.

See PED p. 715,
Su3 (indecl.) [*ssu, fr. Vedic svid, interrog. part. ] - a particle of interrogation, often added to interrogative pronouns.

"bhūtamidaṃ nossūti" would have the sense of ‘has this originated/ come to be’.

("kaṅkhato" would be the dative present participle- 'for one who is uncertain'.)

'has this come to be/ monks/ for one who is uncertain/ it arises/ doubt'
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Sam Vara
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Re: nossūti

Post by Sam Vara »

ssasny wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:16 am Hi,
This is a sandhi of

no (=nu) + su (vedic svid) an interrogative particle.

See PED p. 715,
Su3 (indecl.) [*ssu, fr. Vedic svid, interrog. part. ] - a particle of interrogation, often added to interrogative pronouns.

"bhūtamidaṃ nossūti" would have the sense of ‘has this originated/ come to be’.

("kaṅkhato" would be the dative present participle- 'for one who is uncertain'.)

'has this come to be/ monks/ for one who is uncertain/ it arises/ doubt'
Many thanks, ssasny! :anjali: When you are here, I lay aside the PED!

I took kaṅkhato to be the rare form of the ablative for nouns in ā: "from doubt...". Is that wrong?
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Re: nossūti

Post by ssasny »

Hi,

I suppose that is possible, but I took 'kaṅkhato' as a sort of logical subject of the sentence, with 'vicikicchā' as the grammatical subject.

“Bhikkhus, for one who is uncertain, does doubt arise thus: ‘Has this come to be’?”

Similar to how we see, "tassa evaṃ jānato evaṃ passato kāmāsavā pi cittaṃ vimuccati,..."

or

"Jānato ahaṃ, bhikkhave, passato āsavānaṃ khayaṃ vadāmi, no ajānato no apassato."
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Sam Vara
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Re: nossūti

Post by Sam Vara »

ssasny wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:38 pm ...
:anjali: :heart:
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Re: nossūti

Post by sphairos »

Hi Sam Vara,

It's been a while; congratulations on the appointment the forum moderator!
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:00 am
ssasny wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:16 am Hi,
This is a sandhi of

no (=nu) + su (vedic svid) an interrogative particle.

See PED p. 715,
Su3 (indecl.) [*ssu, fr. Vedic svid, interrog. part. ] - a particle of interrogation, often added to interrogative pronouns.

"bhūtamidaṃ nossūti" would have the sense of ‘has this originated/ come to be’.

("kaṅkhato" would be the dative present participle- 'for one who is uncertain'.)

'has this come to be/ monks/ for one who is uncertain/ it arises/ doubt'
Many thanks, ssasny! :anjali: When you are here, I lay aside the PED!

I took kaṅkhato to be the rare form of the ablative for nouns in ā: "from doubt...". Is that wrong?
Yes, I think this is correct, confer Ven. Ñāṇatiloka's Kleine systematische Pāli-Grammatik (1910, p. 73), illustrating the functions of the ablative:

b) Causation or reason; kāmato jāyati soko, kāmato jāyati bhayaṃ, from desire comes sorrow, from desire comes fear.

(correction)

On the other hand, later in this sutta, it is said ‘"‘Bhūtamidanti, bhikkhave, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato yā vicikicchā sā pahīyatī’’ti?"

In this case passato is a dative-genitive present participle. So kaṅkhato seems to be the participle here too.
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Re: nossūti

Post by Sam Vara »

sphairos wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:46 pm Hi Sam Vara,

It's been a while; congratulations on the appointment the forum moderator!
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:00 am
ssasny wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:16 am Hi,
This is a sandhi of

no (=nu) + su (vedic svid) an interrogative particle.

See PED p. 715,
Su3 (indecl.) [*ssu, fr. Vedic svid, interrog. part. ] - a particle of interrogation, often added to interrogative pronouns.

"bhūtamidaṃ nossūti" would have the sense of ‘has this originated/ come to be’.

("kaṅkhato" would be the dative present participle- 'for one who is uncertain'.)

'has this come to be/ monks/ for one who is uncertain/ it arises/ doubt'
Many thanks, ssasny! :anjali: When you are here, I lay aside the PED!

I took kaṅkhato to be the rare form of the ablative for nouns in ā: "from doubt...". Is that wrong?
Yes, I think this is correct, confer Ven. Ñāṇatiloka's Kleine systematische Pāli-Grammatik (1910, p. 73), illustrating the functions of the ablative:

b) Causation or reason; kāmato jāyati soko, kāmato jāyati bhayaṃ, from desire comes sorrow, from desire comes fear.

(correction)

On the other hand, later in this sutta, it is said ‘"‘Bhūtamidanti, bhikkhave, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato yā vicikicchā sā pahīyatī’’ti?"

In this case passato is a dative-genitive present participle. So kaṅkhato seems to be the participle here too.
Well, thanks...and thanks! :anjali: :heart:
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Re: nossūti

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:21 pm Can anyone please help me with this one? In MN 38, we have the phrase: “bhūtamidaṃ nossūti, bhikkhave, kaṅkhato uppajjati vicikicchā”ti? [...]
To mainly add to what has been said earlier: The Thai and Sri Lankan editions have "kaṅkhāto", indicating that we are dealing here with the ablative of "kaṅkhā," although the dative-genitive present participle "kaṅkhato" is also possible. I would translate: "bhūtamidaṃ nossūti, bhikkhave, kaṅkhāto uppajjati vicikicchāti?" like this: "Bhikkhus, from the uncertainty: 'Has this come to be or not?' does doubt arise?"

The compound "nossu" (in the context of the whole sentence of the direct speech) is explained in this way by the respective commentary (in another gloss explicitly mentioned with an additional coordinating "udāhu" ["or"] by the ṭīkā): "bhūtamidaṃ nossūti bhūtaṃ nu kho idaṃ, na nu kho bhūtanti" -- "'Has this come to be or not?': Now, has it come to be, [or] has it not come to be?"
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Re: nossūti

Post by Sam Vara »

Ṭhānuttamo wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:05 pm ...
Thank you. :anjali:
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Re: nossūti

Post by ssasny »

Thank you very much for this. I certainly should have looked at the alternative readings.
And I think I had not realized the ablative and the present participle would differ in the length of the a.

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