Fasting for uposatha...

[Radix]

Some people may think fasting after noon hours for 1 day drinking plain water is stricter than monastics , but actually which is not something insane at all , i wouldnt think so , that is somewhat an off target mindset . Unless , you are really having stomach problem or other illness , why not fast and live like a monastic just for 1 good day and that is what the uposatha is all about . Isnt that way , a healthy mindset with a spiritual way of fasting and living is really a kind of inspiring aspiration . Good luck .

I find it doesn't even have anything to do with any particular religious/spiritual tradition. It is prudent to occasionally go without all food, drink, and sleep for a period of time, already as a matter of practice, preparing for the time when one will be deprived of those by external circumstances. Similar for practicing tolerating heat and cold.

[Radix]

Then I take it you haven't spent much time in monasteries. It would be quite a rare monk who consumed nothing but plain water during the vikāla.

So what? Unless you want to posit that going with the crowd is somehow conducive to enlightenment and necessary for it, what is your point?

[BKh]

The purpose of a fast is to abstain from all consumables.

Perhaps that is your concept of a fast. Fortunately that was not the Buddha's concept. At least not his concept for what the monastics did every day.

The Buddha had given up the idea that abstaining from all food somehow brought purity.

[Radix]

The purpose of a fast is to abstain from all consumables.

Perhaps that is your concept of a fast. Fortunately that was not the Buddha's concept. At least not his concept for what the monastics did every day.

The Buddha had given up the idea that abstaining from all food somehow brought purity.

I was just reading this sentence elsewhere: After examining and scrutinizing, they criticize those deserving of criticism. How ironic.

No, I don't think that "abstaining from all food somehow brings purity".

After examining and scrutinizing:

I find it doesn't even have anything to do with any particular religious/spiritual tradition. It is prudent to occasionally go without all food, drink, and sleep for a period of time, already as a matter of practice, preparing for the time when one will be deprived of those by external circumstances. Similar for practicing tolerating heat and cold.

[Mumfie]

So what? Unless you want to posit that going with the crowd is somehow conducive to enlightenment and necessary for it, what is your point?

I wasn't referring to those monks who don't observe the vikāla rules at all, but take evening meals because everyone else around them does, e.g., most Mahayana and Ambedkarite monks, and many Sinhalese Theravadins. Rather, I was referring to those who do observe the vikāla rules but don't undertake the extra ascetic observance of consuming only water in the vikāla (an observance that's not even included in the voluntary dhutanga practices). That is, they are open to consuming those things the Vinaya allows them to consume: clear fruit juice, honey, jaggery, etc. This is the Theravadin norm, while consuming only water in the vikāla would be very unusual.

[Dhammapardon]

Perhaps that is your concept of a fast. Fortunately that was not the Buddha's concept. At least not his concept for what the monastics did every day.

The Buddha had given up the idea that abstaining from all food somehow brought purity.

If you don't mind providing some more info, what's the Buddha's concept of a fast and what what's its purpose? I find it hard to stomach the sole purpose is learn sense restraint from not eating. There's an accompanying purpose?

[Dhammapardon]

Is there any mention of drinking a glass of water mixed with psyllium husk powder? Helps push out the day's meal faster and I think it's just fiber?

[Mumfie]

Is there any mention of drinking a glass of water mixed with psyllium husk powder? Helps push out the day's meal faster and I think it's just fiber?

Its use is fairly common in regions where the staple food is constipating, like the glutinous rice of rural Thailand. But it's usually drunk by monks after the meal, not after midday. I don't know if the Vinaya texts mention it.

[asahi]

Some people may think fasting after noon hours for 1 day drinking plain water is stricter than monastics , but actually which is not something insane at all , i wouldnt think so

Then I take it you haven't spent much time in monasteries. It would be quite a rare monk who consumed nothing but plain water during the vikāla.

Well we arent talking about monkhood practices . 8 preceptors is somewhat different . But then that is up to each individual .

[Mumfie]

Well we arent talking about monkhood practices.

In fact we are, for earlier when asked to provide a source for your "only plain water" theory, you replied:

I listened to one Theravada monk talks on observing attha-sila and also a mahayana monk on obseving 8 precepts , both said if the liquid has sediments such as milk , fruit juice , soya drink etc it is not allowed . If honey mix with plain water is allowed because no sedimentation .

The monks you refer to are in fact citing monastic Vinaya rulings, presumably on the assumption that these apply also to the laity's sixth Uposatha precept.

However, I think you've misunderstood what the monks are saying:

That one can't drink fruit juice with solid matter in it doesn't mean that one is permitted only water. What it means is that any fruit juice taken during the vikāla has to be strained.

Honey is allowable not because it contains no solid matter, but because the Buddha made it one of the five tonics for monks.

Milk is not allowable not because it contains sediment, but because the Vinaya classes it as a food.

8 preceptors is somewhat different.

There is no reason to think so. The sixth of the eight precepts is worded exactly the same as the sixth of a samanera's ten precepts, and samaneras are expected to observe the vikāla rules exactly as bhikkhus do.

[DNS]

It's interesting (at least for me) how different cultures define "fasting" for example:

Jewish yom kippur (day of atonement): No food of any kind, no water sunset to sunset 24 hours.
Muslim Ramadan: no food or water sunset to sunset, everyday during month of Ramadan 24 hours (coincidentally, it's Eid today)
Ethiopian Orthodox fast days: no food until after 3 pm, water and tea is okay.
Ethiopian Orthodox Lent: no meat, fish, dairy or eggs, basically vegan for the duration of Lent.

The above cultures are the ones I'm most familiar with, but I'm sure there are other variations in other cultures too.

But here in this thread we are talking about what is acceptable or allowable via Theravada and Vinaya.

For myself (for everyday OMAD practice), I try not to eat anything after lunch, unless the hunger is just too much. For keeping Uposatha, I'll just drink fruit juice (after lunch), if needed.

[asahi]

In fact we are, :

Nope , only yourself .

However, I think you've misunderstood what the monks are saying :

Nope , you are .

That one can't drink fruit juice with solid matter in it doesn't mean that one is permitted only water. What it means is that any fruit juice taken during the vikāla has to be strained.

Nope , that is your own reading . That is for whom are sick .

Honey is allowable not because it contains no solid matter, but because the Buddha made it one of the five tonics for monks.

No however you may think so .

Milk is not allowable not because it contains sediment, but because the Vinaya classes it as a food.

No but you may think so .

There is no reason to think so. The sixth of the eight precepts is worded exactly the same as the sixth of a samanera's ten precepts, and samaneras are expected to observe the vikāla rules exactly as bhikkhus do.

You may interpret as you wish 🫠

[Radix]

So what? Unless you want to posit that going with the crowd is somehow conducive to enlightenment and necessary for it, what is your point?

I wasn't referring to those monks who don't observe the vikāla rules at all, but take evening meals because everyone else around them does, e.g., most Mahayana and Ambedkarite monks, and many Sinhalese Theravadins. Rather, I was referring to those who do observe the vikāla rules but don't undertake the extra ascetic observance of consuming only water in the vikāla (an observance that's not even included in the voluntary dhutanga practices). That is, they are open to consuming those things the Vinaya allows them to consume: clear fruit juice, honey, jaggery, etc. This is the Theravadin norm, while consuming only water in the vikāla would be very unusual.

You didn't answer my question.

Anyway, it's about the direction, the perspective here: I'm suggesting to start with the purpose of a fast, the context of a fast, the big picture; you seem to be focusing only on the details.

The purpose of a fast is to abstain from all consumables. And, ideally, to reflect on one's consumption habits. While fasting, one is supposed to actually fast, not practice a selective diet.

For the case that someone just can't maintain such complete abstinence, allowances are made, hence some items are considered "allowable" (as opposed to being mandatory).

[Mumfie]

Anyway, it's about the direction, the perspective here: I'm suggesting to start with the purpose of a fast, the context of a fast, the big picture; you seem to be focusing only on the details.

Let me try again.

In the suttas, what in English we would call 'fasting' (i.e., complete abstinence from all food) is denoted by the terms nānāsaka (Dhp 141) or ­pariyā­ya­bhatta­bhoja­nā­nu­yoga­ (MN12).

Neither term denotes something that the Buddha approves of and neither is ever used in expositions of the sixth uposatha precept for householders, the 37th pācittiya rule for monks or the 120th pācittiya rule for nuns.

In these three cases the term for the observance is vikālabhojanā veramaṇī. A literal translation of this would be, "refraining from eating at the wrong time". An expansive translation would be, "refraining between midday and dawn from the consumption of those edibles which the Buddha has defined as 'foods' while continuing to consume (if necessary) those edibles which he has defined as 'tonics' or 'medicines'."

Now it happens that some of the items classified by the Buddha as 'tonics' or 'medicines' are what most people would call 'foods' (e.g., ghee, honey, oil and molasses). That being so, clearly the term 'fasting' can't amount to more than a crude approximation for vikālabhojanā veramaṇī. I guess the reason English-speaking Buddhists are given to speaking of "uposatha fasting" is simply because vikālabhojanā veramaṇī has more of a family resemblance with the concept of 'fasting' than it does with any other term that denotes eating-related behaviour: 'gormandizing', 'bingeing', 'eating normally', 'starving to death', etc.

With these considerations in mind, it seems to me that the underlying error in your posts to this thread is the implicit but unstated assumption that the word 'fasting' does faithfully convey the meaning of vikālabhojanā veramaṇī. If one assumes that, then one may well see a fault in someone who claims to be observing the sixth uposatha precept, 37th bhikkhu-pācittiya rule or 120th bhikkhunī-pācittiya rule but whose ingestive acts during the vikāla fail to conform to the English concept of a 'fast'.

If, however, one understands vikālabhojanā veramaṇī correctly, as the distinctive concept that it actually is, then one will see a fault only in those cases where:

(1) something defined by the Buddha as a 'food' is consumed during the vikāla;
(2) something defined by the Buddha as a 'tonic' is consumed during the vikāla when the person is not actually depleted in strength or energy or afflicted with hunger;
(3) something defined by the Buddha as a 'medicine' is consumed during the vikāla when the person is not actually sick.

[TRobinson465]

A pure fast is certainly better, but the Buddha made allowables for a reason. The guy is just asking whats allowable. Oat milk probably not, soy milk is possibly okay based on Ven. Subhuti's analysis which i think is well founded. It takes time for the body to adjust to a fast if they've never done something like that before. If the person wants to fast but is feeling weak or hungry they should know whats allowable and not torture themselves or be tempted to break the fast. This is of course, the middle way they are trying to practice. It is reasonable to take the allowances for monastics as also being allowable for laypeople observing the uposatha.

When did Buddhism become this virtue signaling purity test contest? Reading thru this thread id think i was at some kind of woke social justice forum where people were screaming "oh, well, if you were a REAL ally to minorities and women like i am, etc."

It was a simple question from someone wanting basic info guys...