defilements growing back?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 3:39 pm Nothing in this thread said is required for mediation and progress. I am done with this mumbo jumbo.
Good or not.
SN 6.1 wrote:...This dhamma, I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.

But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it. It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination.

It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.

And if I were to teach this dhamma, others might not understand me, which would be wearying and troublesome for me.”
Last edited by Joe.c on Sat May 13, 2023 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 3:08 pm it seem talking about savaka who haven't acquired the path, but is following(to the end, all what there is to attain for a savaka).
https://suttacentral.net/sn51.15/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“The purpose of leading the spiritual life under the Buddha, brahmin, is to give up desire.”
“Chandappahānatthaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhagavati brahmacariyaṁ vussatī”ti.
You still don't consider above variable thus yes you won't have a clue anytime soon.
Joe.c wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:17 am Anyway, I have no clue where your wrong view is. You got to figure it out yourself or associate with one who has little to no wrong view. Playing with words can be dangerous, because unawakenend mind tend to identify different things as real (aka papanca).
Desire is given up when you are already there. Otherwise, the desire will always never be given up. See the above sutta. Most will never understood.

In the end the body is cooling first (precepts), then the mind is cooling as well (samadhi) due to wisdom is cooling as well (panna).

For one who still want something, They never will ever see. This teaching is about Let Go ALL even your life, body, family, possession, ALL.

Looks like someone is still wanting to be a Samma Sambuddha. Good Luck, that will be a BIG road block. :)
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:47 pm Desire is given up when you are already there. Otherwise, the desire will always never be given up. See the above sutta. Most will never understood.

In the end the body is cooling first (precepts), then the mind is cooling as well (samadhi) due to wisdom is cooling as well (panna).

For one who still want something, They never will ever see. This teaching is about Let Go ALL even your life, body, family, possession, ALL.

Looks like someone is still wanting to be a Samma Sambuddha. Good Luck, that will be a BIG road block. :)
Lets say you have a desire, then the way of fulfillment of that desire is assumed, unclear, result of habit.
When the mind is developed enough it is then not only known as a desire, but in parallel also the mental object is seen(known). Two simultaneous mind streams.
Mind requires stabilizing to that mental object, because it has natural inclination towards sensual fulfillment. Here it is where the defilements rise, like doubt, doubt is regards to the stabilizing the mind, whether it takes care of the problem or not.

No vitakka(as in jhana) yet. If have vitakka then mind doesn't require stabilizing because it inclines already towards seclusion. Condition for having vitakka is that the mental object is matched with the physical object. So when you think of something, it is not assumed, but is rooted in truth.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:47 pm Looks like someone is still wanting to be a Samma Sambuddha. Good Luck, that will be a BIG road block. :)
You have the idea that the samma sambuddha is called that way because he is first who became arhant. So when you say it is a big road block, is because of over practicing, trying so hard to be first?
Have i correctly understood your sutta readings?
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 3:48 pm
Joe.c wrote: Sat May 13, 2023 10:47 pm Looks like someone is still wanting to be a Samma Sambuddha. Good Luck, that will be a BIG road block. :)
You have the idea that the samma sambuddha is called that way because he is first who became arhant. So when you say it is a big road block, is because of over practicing, trying so hard to be first?
Have i correctly understood your sutta readings?
Because i know the conditions are not there for now and future. That means that will be your dukkha. Wish will never be fulfilled. One who still in dukkha doesn’t know the path yet. Big road block.

Also, There can’t be two samma sambuddha in 1 period. There also can’t be any Pacceka Buddha when the teaching of a Samma Sambuddha is still here.

When you are not expected, you become one. That is making it more sweet. Nowadays, more people wanna be but don’t have/know the conditions to be one. 😀

Anyway good luck. Long long long long long road indeed.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 10:51 pm Because i know the conditions are not there for now and future. That means that will be your dukkha. Wish will never be fulfilled. One who still in dukkha doesn’t know the path yet. Big road block.

Also, There can’t be two samma sambuddha in 1 period. There also can’t be any Pacceka Buddha when the teaching of a Samma Sambuddha is still here.

When you are not expected, you become one. That is making it more sweet. Nowadays, more people wanna be but don’t have/know the conditions to be one. 😀

Anyway good luck. Long long long long long road indeed.
We have a (micro)cosmos in the body. If you realize the dhamma, then that dhamma is in particular location on a body and you cycle it through other points too. There is also this that you got to put it into a microcosmic orbit to circulate, otherwise no meditation happen and progress too won't occur.
There isn't straight line what goes lets say from heart to your palms, there are realms in between to be crossed over by knowing different sādhana's, there isn't one trick fits all.

i agree there is long road ahead which you already have walked many times before, cycling over and over again, just have no means to gain perception, develop the mind yet. I hope you gather enough intent by seeing the anicca, dukkha and anatta of conditioned things.

It goes like this, when you open a psychic center in a body, you acquire something. And certain center it is said to be rare if someone opens it.
Developing the mind entails gaining ability to see a pattern of a mind what it regularly goes through, mentally see the formation or taste, sensation of it too and then can stop following that route, simply by taking your mind off from it.
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 3:27 pm We have a (micro)cosmos in the body. If you realize the dhamma, then that dhamma is in particular location on a body and you cycle it through other points too. There is also this that you got to put it into a microcosmic orbit to circulate, otherwise no meditation happen and progress too won't occur.
You are still mixing up teachings. This can only lead to papanca and confusion.

True dhamma is very methodical, step by step.
There isn't straight line what goes lets say from heart to your palms, there are realms in between to be crossed over by knowing different sādhana's, there isn't one trick fits all.
🤔 In fact N8FP is one path that fit all. Using own experience to align to the path to realize the result/fruit by staying/dwelling in the path all the time.

This is how one gain confidence in true triple gems. Because one can realize the results NOW (IF the faculties are there). One also know with confidence all ariya walk the same path.
i agree there is long road ahead which you already have walked many times before, cycling over and over again, just have no means to gain perception, develop the mind yet. I hope you gather enough intent by seeing the anicca, dukkha and anatta of conditioned things.
Anicca, dukkha are being seen every single day or moment for one who has heard true dhamma. Why do you still need to gather enough intention????

I am confused, when people keep talking about anicca, dukkha. They are breathing all the time, they don't know breathing and/or eating are dukkha. 😁

To enter the stream, one needs to know/understand(not fully known yet) this before hand.

To achieve samma samadhi, one needs to see the anicca/dukkha of the kamaloka. And so on, up to the top/peak. Then, let go all (of course one by one) because of the defects.
It goes like this, when you open a psychic center in a body, you acquire something. And certain center it is said to be rare if someone opens it.
Developing the mind entails gaining ability to see a pattern of a mind what it regularly goes through, mentally see the formation or taste, sensation of it too and then can stop following that route, simply by taking your mind off from it.
Not everyone has the same qualities/faculties. This can only lead to papanca as well. If you don't have the faculties.

Rarely i have seen one who has psychic power that show off. One can see past and future and read mind. 😁

A smart one will look at the tools (body, conditions,etc) that being given and then do the easy tasks first and proceed to more difficult one while maintaining the developed qualities/faculties.

A fool will try hard tasks first and never realize anything again and again. This is what happen nowadays, people meditate without knowing the precepts, and not hearing true dhamma. Then, they have hallucinations.

This teaching looks simple, but most can't follow it properly (step by step).

Btw Any Ariya can be a Samma sambuddha or Pacceka Buddha. Only problem is whether one got the chance for the conditions to arise or not.

If you have desire for psychic power, an arahant freed both way should have 3/6 knowledges similar to a Samma SamBuddha. See Maha Moggallana or Anuruddha, Maha Kassapa, etc. But still need to enter the stream first.

Anyway, good luck. Please be smart. Don't waste too much time in samsara. One mistake may lead to lower realms. And most will go down unfortunately. Once one is down there, no Buddha no Bodhisatta can help anyone in lower realm.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:14 am Anicca, dukkha are being seen every single day or moment for one who has heard true dhamma. Why do you still need to gather enough intention????

I am confused, when people keep talking about anicca, dukkha. They are breathing all the time, they don't know breathing and/or eating are dukkha.
..
The Secret of the Golden Flower wrote:Master Lü Tzu said : There are many kinds of confirmatory
experiences. One must not content oneself with
small demands but must rise to the thought that all
living creatures have to be freed. It is not permissible to
be trivial and irresponsible in heart. One must strive to
make deeds prove one's words.
Joe.c wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:14 am Not everyone has the same qualities/faculties. This can only lead to papanca as well. If you don't have the faculties.

Rarely i have seen one who has psychic power that show off. One can see past and future and read mind.

A smart one will look at the tools (body, conditions,etc) that being given and then do the easy tasks first and proceed to more difficult one while maintaining the developed qualities/faculties.

A fool will try hard tasks first and never realize anything again and again. This is what happen nowadays, people meditate without knowing the precepts, and not hearing true dhamma. Then, they have hallucinations.

This teaching looks simple, but most can't follow it properly (step by step).
..
wrote:The Book of Successful Contemplation (Ying Kuan
Ching) says : The sun sinks in the Great Water and
magic pictures of trees in rows arise. The setting of
the sun means that in Chaos (in the world before
phenomena, that is, the intelligible world), a foundation
is laid : that is the condition free of opposites {wu chi).
..
Chen
is also symbolized by wood, wherefore the image of trees
in rows appears.
..
A sevenfold row of trees means the
light of the seven body-openings (or heart-openings).
..
The sun which sinks into the Great Water is the image
for the creative and abysmal.
..
The second part refers to the building of the foundation
on this. The great world is like ice, a glassy world
of jewels. The brilliancy of the Light is gradually
crystallized. That is why a great terrace arises and upon
it, in the course of time, Buddha appears. When the
Golden Being appears who should it be but Buddha ?
For Buddha is the Golden Saint of the Great Enlightenment.
This is a great confirmatory experience.
Joe.c wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:14 am This is how one gain confidence in true triple gems. Because one can realize the results NOW (IF the faculties are there). One also know with confidence all ariya walk the same path.
..
wrote:Now there are three confirmatory experiences which
can be tested. The first is that, when one has entered
the state of meditation, the gods (20) are in the valley.
..
At times the following can be experienced : as soon
as one is quiet, the Light of the eyes begins to blaze up,
so that everything before one becomes quite bright as
if one were in a cloud.
..
Or, when one sits in meditation, the
fleshly body becomes quite shining like silk or jade. It
seems difficult to remain sitting ; one feels as if drawn
upward. This is called: The spirit returns and pushes
against Heaven.
there are more explanations to idioms, but for the sake of shortness of quotes.


Imagine in sutta it talks about seeing god entering the jeta grove, but in practical perspective it is an idiom of a confirmatory sign. Bringing a new topic whether you take those things in sutta literally or some other way?
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

An Ariya will never LIE EVER. So those Sutta will not be an idiom. It is as it is. The true teaching will anchor/free your mind. This can be tested/verified by one who follow the path.

But other book, well good luck. Usually it is due to their limited experience (maybe true or not). It may lead you to their papanca. Eventually go down to rabbit hole. This is why i avoid all other book now, even the abhidhamma.

Unless someone can show me a true arahant that preach it as well. But got to verify it personally as well.

Btw those other book, if the author is still alive, you might want to pay them a visit and verify their sila, samadhi and panna. If it is not there, well good luck on trusting the book.

You might say about my comments as well btw. 😀
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:36 pm An Ariya will never LIE EVER.
Never say never
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

cappuccino wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:20 pm Never say never
Luckily, I know you are blind. So move along. ;)
MN 61 wrote:In the same way, when someone is not ashamed to tell a deliberate lie, there is no bad deed they would not do, I say. So you should train like this: ‘I will not tell a lie, even for a joke.’
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:54 pm Luckily, I know you are blind. So move along. ;)
Middle way is not extreme way
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:36 pm The true teaching will anchor/free your mind. This can be tested/verified by one who follow the path.
Tell me a line of true teaching, which can be understood by the mind, then mind will give a sign, which then you will articulate back to words.
Its what these texts do, you know what they talk about from what it would be given or shown by the mind to you.

Idea of true teaching for me is that it works, shows transformation, like you said, it is tested on spot upon reading the line it does have a mental meaning.

The video link on you, there the Bhante Punnaji says, "Teaching of buddha is well expressed in words" and "can be experienced or seen through all senses".
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by Joe.c »

Don't want to be rude. You have been reading it in Sutta. But never understood. Most people never understood. There is no secret teaching.

For one who has understood, the conclusion will be EXACTLY the SAME 4NT, N8FP, etc. Hear true dhamma, perfected precepts, sense restraint, samadhi, free.

I suggest you look up Late Ven Punnaji and Late Ven Dhammavuddho videos (note: some might find Ven Dhammavuddho a bit controversy due to soul explanation) . Both strictly Sutta only. Keep hearing it and also reflecting it with Sutta. Look up the sutta when they are discussing it. Etc. Keep remembering it during your daily life until they become automatic/second nature.

But it will be difficult if you mind is still closed. I have no clue where your faculties development are. But most need to start from hearing true dhamma and precepts.

This is why an association with other good people is important so one can see the real example in real life. Not merely a theory.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: defilements growing back?

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:24 am Don't want to be rude. You have been reading it in Sutta. But never understood. Most people never understood. There is no secret teaching.
Don't worry about being rude. I just want to hear your rendition. As you need do it anyway if you try implement practically what is written in sutta, i presume you have been attempting to practice, take one of the 4 positions with the body and then what? have you figured out how to get result?

I can tell you how. Do you?
Joe.c wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:24 am For one who has understood, the conclusion will be EXACTLY the SAME 4NT, N8FP, etc. Hear true dhamma, perfected precepts, sense restraint, samadhi, free.
that's sad, learning by heart that there is sila samadhi, panna, 4 noble truths won't do anything. Try it, sit down, do you start thinking about the words samadhi? like then apply your idea what samadhi is? or when the precepts are perfected..

I can tell also for you to perfect the precepts and then say it over and over again till die. Its useless. Not sure how you don't see it.
Joe.c wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:24 am This is why an association with other good people is important so one can see the real example in real life. Not merely a theory.
you can find them in prison, in solitary boxes, they are long term exemplary behavior, little to no sense enjoyment, thinking of freedom.
Joe.c wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:24 am But it will be difficult if you mind is still closed. I have no clue where your faculties development are. But most need to start from hearing true dhamma and precepts.
please, you don't ask any thing specific. Most likely you have no idea what relevant to ask, just general blabla

Lets compare our daily meditation, learning and past time regime?

Do you know the procedure in mind what it takes to be able to quit work; to know and recognize the sensation on what corresponds with when work is going to be quit?

and the mannerism you have is suggesting you haven't learned to chill out from confrontism or i don't know actually but there is something irksome the way you converse. But perhaps everyone has it, i know Pulsar, Ceiswir, Ontheway, Brokenbones to name a few have some work to do.
-
-
-
And yes if you transgender please don't do it.
Post Reply